Missed request. Two-man.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

More than likely one of the 2 guys had an opportunity after the ball went in to glance over to table side. Someone probably should have realized a TO might be coming and glanced over. Not much else going on normaly at this time. [/B][/QUOTE]Not much else going on? From mick's post- "Ball goes in.Helter skelter under the basket and Red is pressing hard". From that description,everything is bang-bang immediately after the FT goes through.In a 2man,if I'm the trail,I'm still in the (new) backcourt trying to help my partner out. No way in the world that I'm now gonna turn my back on the play to verify a timeout request.Granted,I might,and probably shoulda,taken a look at the coach before the FT went up,but after it's gone and this mayhem starts,I ain't looking at him until the play calms down. JMHO.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I can tell you that I have a voice that can easily be heard, I use my loud voice for coaching and requesting timeouts (not for yelling at refs), and I visually and loudly call for timeouts in obvious timeout situations. I have, nevertheless, been ignored by officials for as long as 5-10 seconds, even in relatively quiet gyms. I have never been ignored by any official that I thought had a handle on the game, even when the gym was loud. This problem generally occurs with oficials who get tunnel vision and are not actively thinking about game situations.

I do consider it to be an element of game management to anticipate the situations where a coach might want a TO and to have your ears tuned in for it (while keeping eyes on court). You hear the request, you look over quickly, you see me, you award it. That simple.

I know that there is a lot to do and I don't want your job, beieve me. And I am not aout to suggest that this comes easily. But I believe it is something that you should work on in terms of awareness, not just say if I don't hear it, oh well, that's the coach's problem.

I can say this to you. I am not going to call a timeout with my back to you. It just is not going to happen. For one, it might not be you (the coach) calling a timeout. Secondly, when I call a timeout, I am making sure the proper team has the ball or the ball is not at the disposal of the other team. It is the coaches problem if he or she is not using common sense when trying to call timeouts. Even the NF warns officials of calling timeouts with our backs turned. And I go by the procedure that Ed Hightower told us at a IHSA Rules Meeting about 7 years ago when this rule was put in to:

1. Hear
2. Recognize
3. Then Grant.

First to hear your request, recognize the who is calling it and the status of the ball, then grant the timeout if the proper situation is present. With a coach yelling for a timeout, it might take a few seconds to recognize who is yelling. That is why the coaches should use some common sense and have their players call for the timeout as well. The official's eyes are on the court, it is very easy to tell if they are calling for a timeout, instead of turning around and take my eyes off the court to see who might be yelling for a timeout.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I can tell you that I have a voice that can easily be heard, I use my loud voice for coaching and requesting timeouts (not for yelling at refs), and I visually and loudly call for timeouts in obvious timeout situations. I have, nevertheless, been ignored by officials for as long as 5-10 seconds, even in relatively quiet gyms. I have never been ignored by any official that I thought had a handle on the game, even when the gym was loud. This problem generally occurs with oficials who get tunnel vision and are not actively thinking about game situations.

Hawks Coach,
I really do enjoy loud, active coaches that are working and encouraging their teams. And, I believe, I am on that court at the pleasure of you, your team and your athletic director. I am attentive to game situations.

However, while I am officiating for such a loud, active coach, and after one quarter of snapping my head around for every loud, long 'I'-sound, I hit the mute button. I remain tuned-in, but I have quit listening.
When that happens, I am much more likely to award a visual request for time-out.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

More than likely one of the 2 guys had an opportunity after the ball went in to glance over to table side. Someone probably should have realized a TO might be coming and glanced over. Not much else going on normaly at this time. [/B]

Not much else going on? From mick's post- "Ball goes in.Helter skelter under the basket and Red is pressing hard". From that description,everything is bang-bang immediately after the FT goes through.In a 2man,if I'm the trail,I'm still in the (new) backcourt trying to help my partner out. No way in the world that I'm now gonna turn my back on the play to verify a timeout request.Granted,I might,and probably shoulda,taken a look at the coach before the FT went up,but after it's gone and this mayhem starts,I ain't looking at him until the play calms down. JMHO. [/B][/QUOTE]

Coulda taken a look before and as the ball is going up.
Coulda taken a look as the ball is going thru the net.
Coulda taken a look as the D sets up for their press.

Only takes a second to turn your head (not your back) as you're stepping down to referee the action.

We agree that once the mahem starts for real the coach is sh!t out of luck, but if the guys on the foor were prepared for a TO they could have caught it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Hawks Coach,
I really do enjoy loud, active coaches that are working and encouraging their teams. And, I believe, I am on that court at the pleasure of you, your team and your athletic director. I am attentive to game situations.

However, while I am officiating for such a loud, active coach, and after one quarter of snapping my head around for every loud, long 'I'-sound, I hit the mute button. I remain tuned-in, but I have quit listening.
When that happens, I am much more likely to award a visual request for time-out.
mick

I hear ya. Any coach that has a play called "side out" is asking to have his TO requests taken a little less seriously.

[NCAAREF]

What I was saying was that before the FT even goes up, while the lead has the ball before administering the FT, I would as trail glance at the coach. More often then not in a close end of the game situation he or she would be indicating to me, often by hand gestures that if the FT is good he or she wants a TO. I never meant to imply that I would look at them while play is going on.

[JeffTheRef]

Letting the coaches call time out is a terrible rule. There is often no way to be sure who is calling for a TO without looking away from the game. If a coach doesn't get an official's attention, s/he can get a player to relay the request, especially during a foul shot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not much else going on? From mick's post- "Ball goes in.Helter skelter under the basket and Red is pressing hard". From that description,everything is bang-bang immediately after the FT goes through.In a 2man,if I'm the trail,I'm still in the (new) backcourt trying to help my partner out. No way in the world that I'm now gonna turn my back on the play to verify a timeout request.Granted,I might,and probably shoulda,taken a look at the coach before the FT went up,but after it's gone and this mayhem starts,I ain't looking at him until the play calms down. JMHO. [/B]

Coulda taken a look before and as the ball is going up.
Coulda taken a look as the ball is going thru the net.
Coulda taken a look as the D sets up for their press.

Only takes a second to turn your head (not your back) as you're stepping down to referee the action.

We agree that once the mahem starts for real the coach is sh!t out of luck, but if the guys on the foor were prepared for a TO they could have caught it. [/B][/QUOTE]Mick's original post says that the coach said that he wanted a TO AFTER the FT was made. To me,that says that he didn't start asking until after the ball went through,which is when the ma(y)hem started.That's the way I read mick's post,anyway,-which means that it didn't matter if you looked before the FT or after the ball went through the net-because the coach hadn't asked yet.Maybe Mick can clarify just when he thought the coach first started asking for the TO.If he started asking before the ma(y)hem,then I agree with you.If he started asking after the ma(y)hem started,then I don't agree with you. Fair enough?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Coulda taken a look before and as the ball is going up.
Coulda taken a look as the ball is going thru the net.
Coulda taken a look as the D sets up for their press.

Only takes a second to turn your head (not your back) as you're stepping down to referee the action.

We agree that once the mahem starts for real the coach is sh!t out of luck, but if the guys on the foor were prepared for a TO they could have caught it. [/B]

Mick's original post says that the coach said that he wanted a TO AFTER the FT was made. To me,that says that he didn't start asking until after the ball went through,which is when the ma(y)hem started.That's the way I read mick's post,anyway,-which means that it didn't matter if you looked before the FT or after the ball went through the net-because the coach hadn't asked yet.Maybe Mick can clarify just when he thought the coach first started asking for the TO.If he started asking before the ma(y)hem,then I agree with you.If he started asking after the ma(y)hem started,then I don't agree with you. Fair enough? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well sh!t JR, if Mick looked over there before, during, and just after the FT went in and the coach was sitting on his hands we have a different discussion - the coach was wrong. But I imagine the coach was standing up calmly giving Mick a T expecting that someone on the floor saw it. Or maybe the coach told little Sally to get a TO on the made FT but little Sally had a brain cramp & forgot but somehow that exact explanation didn't get back to the coach....

btw, looks like you might need a new keyboard, somehow these things () keep popping up around your "y".

[gsf23]

Last year at our districts we had a very intense double overtime game. Gym was packed and very loud. I thought the officials did a great job in controlling the game and granting the timeout requests. One of the things that they did was towards the end of the game and the overtimes, if there was a foul, after the official reported it, he would would quickly shoot over to the coach that was trailing in the game and ask, "are you going to want a timeout?" Thought it was good game management, and again, they didn't miss a TO request

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by gsf23

...if there was a foul, after the official reported it, he would would quickly shoot over to the coach that was trailing in the game and ask, "are you going to want a timeout?"

Please don't do this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Please don't do this.

"Coach,if you want a TO,make sure that you're in a position where we can see or hear you,or make sure that one of your players requests it".

Agree with Dan.Never give a TO out unless you get a proper request.The rules do NOT allow for any other procedure. I'll look but I won't ask.I will use the above,if a coach tells me that he wants a TO after a FT,etc. He's gotta ask WHEN he wants it.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Maybe Mick can clarify just when he thought the coach first started asking for the TO.If he started asking before the ma(y)hem,then I agree with you.If he started asking after the ma(y)hem started,then I don't agree with you. Fair enough?

Uh, ...geez, JR!
What part of missed the request do you want?

The request had to have come after the second free-throw went through. He was yellin', but I wasn't hearin' or lookin' his way.
...Did not request anything before I administered the ball.
Nuthin' was going on at the benches or table.

Besides how could he yell to me on the baeline, or my partner across the floor, that he wanted a "...TO, if..."
That's something that we want to keep very quiet.

Otherwise, we could have a coach requesting a TO, if the opposing team scores 5 times in a row, or if his team turns the ball over three times in succession.

I think the Trail is standing, facing the benches and is there to observe and glance. My good partner undoubtedly was queued on the rebounding action by the time the coach initiated his request.

To make matters more challenging, the gym had the added parameters of being dark and having a restraining line.

mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

What part of missed the request do you want?

The request had to have come after the second free-throw went through. He was yellin', but I wasn't hearin' or lookin' his way.
...Did not request anything before I administered the ball.
Nuthin' was going on at the benches or table.
Otherwise, we could have a coach requesting a TO, if the opposing team scores 5 times in a row, or if his team turns the ball over three times in succession.

My good partner undoubtedly was queued on the rebounding action by the time the coach initiated his request.

To make matters more challenging, the gym had the added parameters of being dark and having a restraining line.

[/B][/QUOTE]Good enough for me. The coach screwed up.You guys did your jobs-focusing on the press and the in bounds after the made FT(i.e. ma(y)hem). You didn't miss the request,IMO. Coach didn't request properly,is all.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What part of missed the request do you want?

The request had to have come after the second free-throw went through. He was yellin', but I wasn't hearin' or lookin' his way.
...Did not request anything before I administered the ball.
Nuthin' was going on at the benches or table.
Otherwise, we could have a coach requesting a TO, if the opposing team scores 5 times in a row, or if his team turns the ball over three times in succession.

My good partner undoubtedly was queued on the rebounding action by the time the coach initiated his request.

To make matters more challenging, the gym had the added parameters of being dark and having a restraining line.

[/B]

Good enough for me. The coach screwed up.You guys did your jobs-focusing on the press and the in bounds after the made FT(i.e. ma(y)hem). You didn't miss the request,IMO. Coach didn't request properly,is all. [/B][/QUOTE]

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