When is cheating not cheating vs when is cheating unsportsmanlike?

[Pantherdreams]

I know we've discussed this here before but I can't seem to find the thread.

We know that it is an accepted strategy that teams commit fouls late in games, knowing the penalty will be free throws but in an attempt to regain possession. Coaches train it, officials officiate it. Rules are being purposefully violated, but it is an accepted tactic and we move on.

Now lets move to my Saturday. In the stands (fan only this season). Late in game under 10 seconds. A1 is at the line down 4. Makes the first. Coach yells out something that is apparently code for we're going to miss it and go for the boards. He's yelling out and making gestures that ressemble make a cookies, while trying to get confirmation from his shooter. A1 nods at the coach and his teamates start talking and getting ready. Coach for team B says something to B2 who nods.

As A1 takes a high arcing rainbow, B2 steps in early before the shot is released. Shot is missed as everyone crashes after ball, whistle blows violation shoot again. This slapstick act happens 3 times, before official walks over and gets into a brief heated exchange with Coach B, then comes back finger wagging at B1. B1 looks at coach who barks something at him.

A1 goes for the intentional miss (no violation by b2 this time) but B gets rebound gets, fouled. B ices it at the line.

If A1 is missing on purpose and B2 is violating on purpose to negate the miss . . . when does this dance end. Is it up to us to end it? Do we have means to end it? I mean we could offer an unsporting T to one team for not playing within the spirit of the rules but which team do you go after? How would you handle this in your particular Romes.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

He's yelling out and making gestures that ressemble make a cookies,

I'm trying to figure out this gesutre, but I just can't come up with it. Please elaborate.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I'm trying to figure out this gesutre, but I just can't come up with it. Please elaborate.

Stirring junk in a bowl.

[Dad]

I think you have two options here. It's not a violation to attempt to hit the rim and that's all as the shooter. It is, however, a violation to put your foot over the line.

There are a few case plays that remind me of stuff like this. Most of them say to just ignore the violation. Examples are stepping out of bounds to stop a fast break by the other team, or crossing the line on an in-bounds pass during a running clock to stop the clock near the end of the game.

Option 1: Ignore the violation and most likely what I'm doing. Follows most of what NFHS publishes on purposely doing violations to disadvantage the other team.

Option 2: Give the defense a technical. I would really try to avoid this option. Maybe you can justify it with some vague rule usage, but I'm far more inclined to just ignore the violation.

Keep in mind this is what I'm doing if I have definite(100%) knowledge the offensive team is trying to miss the shot.

[bob jenkins]

I seem to recall an interp that this becomes an unsporting T on B (or B1, or the coach -- I forget the specifics)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I seem to recall an interp that this becomes an unsporting T on B (or B1, or the coach -- I forget the specifics)

I've never seen or heard of this. If someone could find/post it I'd appreciate it.

[Adam]

Once it's clear to me that the defense what the defense is attempting to do, I'm going to warn their coach that the next one will be a technical foul.

Both teams are doing things to delay this game gain an advantage, but only one is breaking the rules to do it.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

Once it's clear to me that the defense what the defense is attempting to do, I'm going to warn their coach that the next one will be a technical foul.

Both teams are doing things to delay this game, but only one is breaking the rules to do it.

I'm switching to what you should do\what you said. Ran to get my book to quote 9.3.3 D, but I had forgotten the end of it:

If time is not a factor, the defense should be penalized with the violation or a technical foul for unsporting behavior

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm switching to what you should do\what you said. Ran to get my book to quote 9.3.3 D, but I had forgotten the end of it:

If time is not a factor, the defense should be penalized with the violation or a technical foul for unsporting behavior

I think the reference is the delay of game T on players (actionless contest). I don't have my book at work, though, so I can't quote the rule.

[HokiePaul]

A team shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:

c. Commit a violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane, as in 9-2-10, after any team warning for delay.

I'd cite this as being close enough to article c. above and after warning the coach, would have no problem issuing a technical.


Before that point, however, I would be watching closely for pushes/holds by both teams in these situations. It's pretty impressive that in the scenario presented, the free thrower was able to avoid violation himself by hitting the rim all 3 times, and that there was no pushing/holding/jersey grabbing during the rebounding action for 3 straight attempts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

A team shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:

c. Commit a violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane, as in 9-2-10, after any team warning for delay.

I'd cite this as being close enough to article c. above and after warning the coach, would have no problem issuing a technical.


Before that point, however, I would be watching closely for pushes/holds by both teams in these situations. It's pretty impressive that in the scenario presented, the free thrower was able to avoid violation himself by hitting the rim all 3 times, and that there was no pushing/holding/jersey grabbing during the rebounding action for 3 straight attempts.

I'm not letting it get to three. It's going to be obvious after the 1st or 2nd, so the third will be a technical foul and I'm calling disconcertion if the rim is missed along with the TF.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think the reference is the delay of game T on players (actionless contest). I don't have my book at work, though, so I can't quote the rule.

Non-contact, away from the ball, illegal defensive violations (I.e. blah blah blah) specifically designed to stop the clock near the end of a period or take away a clear advantageous position by the offense should be temporarily ignored. The defensive team should not benefit from the tactic. If time is not a factor, the defense should be penalized with the violation or a technical foul for unsporting behavior

I'd call it a clear advantageous position in this scenario which the defense is attempting to negate.

[just another ref]

The foundation for this to be considered illegal by B is The Intent and Purpose of the Rules passage in the front of the book:

A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.

[BryanV21]

This seems simple enough to penalize Team B with an unsportsmanlike technical.

There is nothing in the rules that states it's illegal, in any situation, to purposely miss a free throw. Heck, by just shooting the free throw they are turning the game into an "action contest".

But it is against the rules to go into the lane before the free throw is released. Doing so is not only a violation but actually causes the game to turn into an "actionless contest". And turning the game into an "actionless contest" is grounds for a technical foul.

[Coach Bill]

What if it was obvious what was happening, but on the second attempt A1 accidentally banks it in? Would you count the point and still call the T?

Also, if A has the possession arrow, then would the best course of action be to miss the rim or step over the line and commit a violation yourself after B has entered the lane? That would go to alternating possession arrow, correct?