Don't be a jersey plumber?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

Coming back to the jersey issue, I agree with you on preventative officiating. I'm not, however, going to pass on the T just because I can't directly see the jersey removed because a team constructs a temporary dressing room in the form a huddle or by holding up towels after I've told the coach the player needs leave the visual confines of the playing area as removing the uniform on the bench area will result in a technical foul.

OK. How are you going to penalize something you clearly did not see? Are you going to take the word of the opponent? If you tell the team to send the player to the locker room, why would you need to worry about towels being held up?

Forgive me but what you are saying is perplexing to me when you can make a big enough deal about this where they will listen to you. I literally tell the coaches before I tell them to remove something, "First of all you need to have him do this in the locker room, but he needs to take that (undershirt/jersey) off now, but make sure he goes to the locker room and through those doors......"

I have literally never had a problem with anyone when I make it clear and tell them that the penalty is a technical foul. Why would I care if I did not see where they take the jersey off if I am not following them into the locker room?

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I'm not making a judgement or telling people what to look for or how to deal with this or any other issue. My point was simply that you can penalize things you don't directly see. There is also value in Dad's point of being careful about penalizing things you don't see, but the reality is that we have 4 other senses and the power of reasoning that should guide us.

If you say so. But to me this is looking for trouble.

Peace

[BoomerSooner]

I'm not choosing a "hill to die on" over this, nor do I make it a habit of "looking for trouble". I hate issuing technical fouls over anything that most would agree is not a direct result of something game related (changing a jersey, scorebook changes, etc), but that is the job.

I don't want to belabor this issue, so I'll ask how you would handle this situation and acquiesce to the consensus opinion.

Player A12 has blood on his jersey and I direct him to leave the game. I walk with him to his bench area and say "Number 12 has blood on his jersey and by rule needs to have it cleaned or changed. If he changes his jersey, he needs to go someplace where he can't be seen from the court or a technical foul will be called. Also if he has to change jersey number, he'll need to report that to the scorer but there is no penalty for changing the book. Will you send a sub to the table so we can get going again?"

The coach replies, "Can I use a timeout to keep him in the game?"

I reply, "Yes, but he will need to be ready by the end of the timeout and remember if he's going to change jerseys he's got to do it where he can't be seen from the court. If he isn't going to make it back in time, you'll need to have a sub at the table at the 15 second warning."

The coach calls the timeout. He then has the entire team stand up and form a tight semi-circle around A12 who is sitting on the bench. I can't see A12, but I am in a position to see if anyone has left the bench area. The only movement I observe is a trainer leave and return with a jersey. As the time out ends I see A12 stand from the bench and approach the scorer's table to inform them that he will be wearing number 22 for the remainder of the game.

At no time was I able to directly observe A12 remove his jersey, but I know with certainty that he is no longer wearing the same jersey as he was before the timeout and that he did not leave the bench area during the timeout. I instructed the coach on the rule when I initially directed A12 to leave the game, I reminded him of the rule when he asked about using a timeout and he determined that his solution was appropriate because I couldn't see it. Do I agree and pass on it or do I issue a technical foul?

Please note the issue isn't whether or not I'm looking for trouble, but whether or not I should call a technical foul for something I didn't directly observe even if I know with absolute certainty what happened, and that it happened despite the coach having been given clear and fair instructions on the rule and penalty. Also, please don't comment that I could merely turn my back to the bench or have gone to get some water and would have no idea whether or not A12 left or that I could have prevented this by running over and giving a third warning to the coach.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I'm not choosing a "hill to die on" over this, nor do I make it a habit of "looking for trouble". I hate issuing technical fouls over anything that most would agree is not a direct result of something game related (changing a jersey, scorebook changes, etc), but that is the job.

I don't want to belabor this issue, so I'll ask how you would handle this situation and acquiesce to the consensus opinion.

Player A12 has blood on his jersey and I direct him to leave the game. I walk with him to his bench area and say "Number 12 has blood on his jersey and by rule needs to have it cleaned or changed. If he changes his jersey, he needs to go someplace where he can't be seen from the court or a technical foul will be called. Also if he has to change jersey number, he'll need to report that to the scorer but there is no penalty for changing the book. Will you send a sub to the table so we can get going again?"

The coach replies, "Can I use a timeout to keep him in the game?"

I reply, "Yes, but he will need to be ready by the end of the timeout and remember if he's going to change jerseys he's got to do it where he can't be seen from the court. If he isn't going to make it back in time, you'll need to have a sub at the table at the 15 second warning."The coach calls the timeout. He then has the entire team stand up and form a tight semi-circle around A12 who is sitting on the bench. I can't see A12, but I am in a position to see if anyone has left the bench area. The only movement I observe is a trainer leave and return with a jersey. As the time out ends I see A12 stand from the bench and approach the scorer's table to inform them that he will be wearing number 22 for the remainder of the game.

At no time was I able to directly observe A12 remove his jersey, but I know with certainty that he is no longer wearing the same jersey as he was before the timeout and that he did not leave the bench area during the timeout. I instructed the coach on the rule when I initially directed A12 to leave the game, I reminded him of the rule when he asked about using a timeout and he determined that his solution was appropriate because I couldn't see it. Do I agree and pass on it or do I issue a technical foul?

Please note the issue isn't whether or not I'm looking for trouble, but whether or not I should call a technical foul for something I didn't directly observe even if I know with absolute certainty what happened, and that it happened despite the coach having been given clear and fair instructions on the rule and penalty. Also, please don't comment that I could merely turn my back to the bench or have gone to get some water and would have no idea whether or not A12 left or that I could have prevented this by running over and giving a third warning to the coach.

If he's not back in time, the 15 second warning is irrelevant.

[JRutledge]

All this you just stated, I would not have done this way. I would have told them and pointed to off the court and made sure the player left the area. If a coach would have suggested he wanted a timeout, I still would have been standing there insisting or imploring that this would all need to be done off the court. Usually the player starts running to the doors or off the court to do this. To me if you just tell them something and walk away, shame on you for not giving the proper information. But if they happen to change on the court, then you have the ability to give a T, but it should never come to that in the first place.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he's not back in time, the 15 second warning is irrelevant.

Agreed. This is a directed replacement. I'm giving the full 60 seconds.

[just another ref]

All things considered, I think visual is still the most important word. If their circle was tight enough that you saw nothing when apparently you were standing there trying to see something, I say give them an A for effort and play on.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by Adam

Agreed. This is a directed replacement. I'm giving the full 60 seconds.

The replacement interval is only 20 seconds and is not increased to 60 seconds by calling a time out. If a time out is called for the purpose of keeping a player in the game, it must be called prior to the replacement interval (3.3.6-7 Note 2). Once the replacement interval begins the player must be replaced. If a timeout is used, the rules of a timeout take effect and require a substitute be at the table at the 15 second warning. In reality I'm not going to throw a fit if a sub isn't at the table by the warning buzzer when a coach uses a timeout to try to keep a player in the game and ultimately determines the kid isn't ready at the end of the timeout (whether in the situation we're discussing or if it were an injury). I am, however, going to mention the requirement to the coach when granting the timeout in an attempted to expedite resuming play. Again, I'm not going to go nuts over the situation in real life, but the warning buzzer is applicable when returning from a timeout.

In other news, the voting breaks down as follows:
Can't see it, can't call it: 1
Call the technical foul: 0

Write in votes
Shame on the official for not being more forceful in preventing the situation: 1

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The replacement interval is only 20 seconds and is not increased to 60 seconds by calling a time out. If a time out is called for the purpose of keeping a player in the game, it must be called prior to the replacement interval (3.3.6-7 Note 2). Once the replacement interval begins the player must be replaced. If a timeout is used, the rules of a timeout take effect and require a substitute be at the table at the 15 second warning. In reality I'm not going to throw a fit if a sub isn't at the table by the warning buzzer when a coach uses a timeout to try to keep a player in the game and ultimately determines the kid isn't ready at the end of the timeout (whether in the situation we're discussing or if it were an injury). I am, however, going to mention the requirement to the coach when granting the timeout in an attempted to expedite resuming play. Again, I'm not going to go nuts over the situation in real life, but the warning buzzer is applicable when returning from a timeout.

I think this may be a hole in the rule.

If the coach doesn't get the sub there in time, the normal process is to make the sub wait. Since we have injured (or blood-soaked) player that requires a sub if the player is not ready by the end of the timeout, there's really no way to enforce the 15 second requirement.

Since two rules seem to contradict one another, we have to choose.

If the player isn't ready to go after the TO, now we give the coach 20 seconds to replace the player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think this may be a hole in the rule.

If the coach doesn't get the sub there in time, the normal process is to make the sub wait. Since we have injured (or blood-soaked) player that requires a sub if the player is not ready by the end of the timeout, there's really no way to enforce the 15 second requirement.

Since two rules seem to contradict one another, we have to choose.

If the player isn't ready to go after the TO, now we give the coach 20 seconds to replace the player.

Agree.

[BoomerSooner]

And hence why I commented that I wouldn't throw a fit in that situation, but I am going to say something to the coach to try to move the game along. It is merely an attempt to hurry the game along that is supported by rule, albeit difficulty to enforce or penalize in actual practice.

I disagree that moving the 20 second replacement period to after a timeout is supported by rule, but it wouldn't drive me crazy enough to say anything if a partner allowed it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

And hence why I commented that I wouldn't throw a fit in that situation, but I am going to say something to the coach to try to move the game along. It is merely an attempt to hurry the game along that is supported by rule, albeit difficulty to enforce or penalize in actual practice.

I disagree that moving the 20 second replacement period to after a timeout is supported by rule, but it wouldn't drive me crazy enough to say anything if a partner allowed it.

So after the timeout, the player is now directed to leave the game. How do you enforce any sort of time limit to keep the coach from dawdling?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

So after the timeout, the player is now directed to leave the game. How do you enforce any sort of time limit to keep the coach from dawdling?

Make the replacement interval be "immediate". Unless there's another TO, of course.

[Nevadaref]

Comments on the 2005-2006 Rules Revisions

JERSEYS/PANTS/SKIRTS PROHIBITED FROM BEING REMOVED
(3-4-15, 10-3-7h, 10-4-1i):
A team member is prohibited from removing his/her jersey and/or pants/skirt within the confines of the playing area. The penalty is a technical foul. The former uniform rule didn’t require team members to actually wear the team uniform. This addition also addresses a growing behavioral concern of players removing their jersey to demonstrate frustration or anger as a means of attracting individual attention. The rule is also intended to be applied in all situations – even when a player must change uniforms due to blood or other unusual circumstances. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to go to their locker rooms to change their jerseys.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The replacement interval is only 20 seconds and is not increased to 60 seconds by calling a time out. If a time out is called for the purpose of keeping a player in the game, it must be called prior to the replacement interval (3.3.6-7 Note 2). Once the replacement interval begins the player must be replaced. If a timeout is used, the rules of a timeout take effect and require a substitute be at the table at the 15 second warning. In reality I'm not going to throw a fit if a sub isn't at the table by the warning buzzer when a coach uses a timeout to try to keep a player in the game and ultimately determines the kid isn't ready at the end of the timeout (whether in the situation we're discussing or if it were an injury). I am, however, going to mention the requirement to the coach when granting the timeout in an attempted to expedite resuming play. Again, I'm not going to go nuts over the situation in real life, but the warning buzzer is applicable when returning from a timeout.

Actually, you aren't doing this properly. The team gets the full 60 seconds to attempt to remedy the situation, if it requests a full time-out. If the player is still unable to continue and the team does not wish to take another time-out, it now receives 20 seconds to replace the player. The sub only needs to report prior to the horn at the end of this 20 second interval.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The replacement interval is only 20 seconds and is not increased to 60 seconds by calling a time out. If a time out is called for the purpose of keeping a player in the game, it must be called prior to the replacement interval (3.3.6-7 Note 2).

Maybe I misread, was it not? Once you've told the coach that there is blood on the jersey, he should be able to request and be granted a timeout before the replacement interval begins.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I disagree that moving the 20 second replacement period to after a timeout is supported by rule, but it wouldn't drive me crazy enough to say anything if a partner allowed it.

I would agree with this on a 5th foul for sure, but as long as the request is made before you've started the 20 second clock, the interval should be moved to the end of the timeout (or made irrelevant by the situation being remedied.)