Foul count

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dad

My goal every game is to not miss a call, regardless of the foul count at any point. Whether I succeed or not is another matter entirely.

Too many times I've seen the team with 8 fouls get away with something they shouldn't have, or the team with 1 foul getting a phantom foul because, 'well it looked like there couldn't been xyz and no one will complain with the foul count.'

Personally, I'd just rather not worry about it and have any chance of me disadvantaging the team playing better defense, which I'd probably do even if I didn't want to admit it.

Eh, there's "pie in the sky" officiating and then there's the real world.

Same thing goes when a team's down 40 and there's a 50/50 call -- whether a foul or an out of bounds call. Likely puts a thumb on the scale. Some people would call that terrible - I just call it common sense.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Rich

Eh, there's "pie in the sky" officiating and then there's the real world.

Same thing goes when a team's down 40 and there's a 50/50 call -- whether a foul or an out of bounds call. Likely puts a thumb on the scale. Some people would call that terrible - I just call it common sense.

I'm not seeing how the two correlate. I agree it is common sense and wouldn't call it terrible. In a blowout one team has, for the most part, no chance of winning.

The scenarios I usually see an obvious difference in fouls are in a close game where one team is vastly more aggressive. Personally, if I were to think about the foul count I may give the aggressive team an advantage by not calling a foul on them or calling a foul on the other team I normally wouldn't.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your story is exactly why I advise officials to keep their mouths shut until reaching the lockerroom with the door closed. Better yet, wait until you meet somewhere away from the school after the game.

I constantly observe officials wanting to talk about plays or situations when it isn't appropriate and they just get themselves into trouble.

Worked a game on Friday and had one of my partners (1st time working with him) do exactly this several times through out game. He hadn't had this team or coach before. I saw he talking to this coach during a set of free throws. Then coach laughed and said "now your are just embarrasing yourself". Exchange was obviously about his call.....

After game I offered that sometimes less is more.

[Rich]

As an assigner, a vast majority of my complaints about officials deal with officials opening their mouths when they shouldn't.

Example: Coach is not staying in the coaching box, although at this very old school with some unique layout challenges, it's pretty hard for him to do so.

Official talked with him, warned him.

OK, fine. I'm not thrilled with this, but whatever. Coach needs to adjust to officials just like we need to adjust to coach personalities.

The problem was when another coach at the school, working game management, overheard this official telling a partner as they walked out in the second half, "He's going to get one (a technical, obviously) this half."

Sure enough, that's what happened. Now it looks like (and I think a good case can be made) that the official was out to get the coach.

Another official in the last week was reported for trying to joke with a coach in a situation that only the best and most experienced could get away with. Younger official, didn't know the coach, coach didn't know the official, I get an email.

You can't misquote silence.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Rich

Official talked with him, warned him.

OK, fine. I'm not thrilled with this, but whatever.

How do you want this handled?

[RedAndWhiteRef]

If a coach complains about the foul count, he or she automatically loses credibility with me. Especially at the varsity level. Anyone who understands basketball should know that it's not necessarily going to be equal and the style of play will dictate it more than the officials will. I had a boys JV game earlier this year where one team had way more fouls than the other--that team was jacking up threes against their opponents' zone all night, while their opponents had a size advantage and were banging it inside. The coach never once complained. He knew exactly why. And his team ended up winning the game.

My second or third game of the season, a coach screamed at us right before halftime that his team had 14 fouls while their opponents only had seven. My partner said to him, "I hear you Coach, during halftime we'll go through the rulebook and find the rule that says the fouls have to be equal." Shut that coach right up without even having to raise his voice.

[rsl]

The foul count is one game statistic, score is another.

As officials are we supposed to make sure the score is equal as well?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dad

How do you want this handled?

I want the officials to recognize that half the box is inaccessible due to the fact it's a 60+ year old gym and the bleachers are almost on the court.

This will fix itself next year (new gym), but for right now I'd prefer to not whack a coach who's off the court, in the area close to where the box would be, who's coaching his team. Maybe I should've communicated that to the officials working in advance, but it's never been a problem before....

[Dad]

Originally Posted by rsl

The foul count is one game statistic, score is another.

As officials are we supposed to make sure the score is equal as well?

I doubt anyone is insinuating this. example:

FG game and the score is 48H to 0V. Two minutes to go in the game and V hits a FT but steps on the line. What official is calling this?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

I doubt anyone is insinuating this. example:

FG game and the score is 48H to 0V. Two minutes to go in the game and V hits a FT but steps on the line. What official is calling this?

At the varsity level, and depending on how "far" on the FT line I am. At the FG level I would expect travelling and 3 second violations to be 99% of the calls.

[just another ref]

The foul count is meaningless to officials. Trying to do anything just "to be consistent" is a bad idea. The last call is over. Try to get the next one right.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Rich

Another official in the last week was reported for trying to joke with a coach in a situation that only the best and most experienced could get away with. Younger official, didn't know the coach, coach didn't know the official, I get an email.

I can't stand this mentality from coaches (or anyone really). I may be new to the basketball world but I've been an official for a long time so not knowing me is not a reason to think I can't handle myself or the situation. I'm meaning big picture here as well. If in your situation the coach didn't like the guy joking the fine but sending an email to tattle on him and admitting that it would be ok if he was older and if he knew him? Cmon!! I hate it bc that just lends assignors (not meaning you here rich) to play good ole boys club and only have the same guys going to same schools all the time. It gets fricking old. Real old.

[JRutledge]

I think we over think this situation. If the fouls are 8-1, there is probably a reason they are that way. I am not going to make it up or call something that is not there. And I am certainly not going to pass on something that is a foul. Players and coaches need to adjust. Yes I might not want to miss a foul on the team with 1, but if you are taking nothing but jumpers and not attacking the basket, there is not much I can do to "help" you anyway. I also do not care about foul counts and stopped worrying about them and the comments that follow.

I have also been doing this long enough and well enough to work the games I get. If a coach does not like what I do, I can work for any number of schools around me for different people. I can assume I am hired in many cases because of my background in this and just like the guys you see on TV all the time at the NCAA level, we are hired similarly. So the guys that work the big games are often officials with a certain pedigree.

There is too much video out there that has a call or two in some minimal game where someone thinks you kicked a call and it ends up on social media somehow. I would rather every one of my calls be top notch and accurate than trying to help a coach and that video is on social media.

Peace

[rockyroad]

In the late 80's/early 90's, foul counts were a big thing at camps and training sessions - at least out here on the West Coast. Pretty much every camp I went to (all up and down the coast) stressed that "being aware of" the foul count was "good game management". Conversations similiar to this happened multiple times each year (during a time-out, between quarters, at half-time, etc.):

"Partner, the foul count is 9-2. We really need to get on white/red/blue/whatever color"

or

"Partners, we did a great job tonight. Foul count was 17 to 16. That's awesome."

I hated it. But it was the philosophy, at least out here. John Thompson just never moved on from that way of looking at it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I can't stand this mentality from coaches (or anyone really). I may be new to the basketball world but I've been an official for a long time so not knowing me is not a reason to think I can't handle myself or the situation. I'm meaning big picture here as well. If in your situation the coach didn't like the guy joking the fine but sending an email to tattle on him and admitting that it would be ok if he was older and if he knew him? Cmon!! I hate it bc that just lends assignors (not meaning you here rich) to play good ole boys club and only have the same guys going to same schools all the time. It gets fricking old. Real old.

Where did you get that from? Rich is saying only a very experienced official with some knowledge of the coach could successfully get away with this behavior.

And what's with complaining about "tattling"? The coach has a right to communicate something he is unhappy about.