foul count

[moose69]

Ok peoples, I was reffing a tournamnet game tonight with a well respected/experience offical in my area, who happens to be a coach as well. As an aside, i once played for him . Anyways, we're flying along just smoothly... 2nd half. Team A commits 3 quick fouls. A time out is called... we stoped to converse briefy on our way to our positions, and my partner said " let's look for one on white, not make one up... but look for one". I asked, why? He said that it's kind of game manangment. I said what happens it A commits 6, and B comitts 0. He said, well you'd have a tough time selling that to the coach, which I agree to, to a certain extent.But, why should we focus our attention on one team, to even up the team foul count, evevn though it might not be warranted, and inturn while we're looking for the simple off-ball nudge, we could miss the rape that happens on the perimiter. I asked my partner if he was speaking from a coaches perspective,or that of an official, he just replied with the it's good game mangment speal.

My question is, am I being to moralistic?? Should the foul count influence our calls, and what we look for.
And do any of you use this same phyilosphy,or know anyone who does.. and how do you deal with it?


Thanx, Tyler

[mick]

Originally posted by moose69
My question is, am I being to moralistic?? Should the foul count influence our calls, and what we look for.
And do any of you use this same phyilosphy,or know anyone who does.. and how do you deal with it?


Thanx, Tyler

Tyler,

Early this season ,in Girls'Varsity, 1st half, we had the visitors at 8-3 fouls. The visiting coach said, "It's 8-3 doesn't that bother you?".
I said, "Yeah it bothers me. Ask your players to quit pushin' and holdin'."
2nd half swung the other way as the players adjusted.
mick

[BktBallRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Originally posted by moose69 Early this season ,in Girls'Varsity, 1st half, we had the visitors at 8-3 fouls. The visiting coach said, "It's 8-3 doesn't that bother you?".
I said, "Yeah it bothers me. Ask your players to quit pushin' and holdin'."
2nd half swung the other way as the players adjusted.

I've had that happened dozens of times.One team gets called for quite a few more fouls in the first half. At halftime, they adjust, and we end up calling quite a few more on the other team in the 2nd half. Things have a way of balancing out, without changing the way you're calling.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by moose69
My question is, am I being to moralistic?? Should the foul count influence our calls, and what we look for.
And do any of you use this same phyilosphy,or know anyone who does.. and how do you deal with it?

I always take this as meaning "be sure we don't miss a foul on the other team." We all miss some; this is not a good time to miss this.

[paulis]

I remember a game some time ago with a similar situation. One team had been cited for many more fouls than its opponent with the score being just as lop-sided. When asked about the foul discrepency, my partner tells the coach "Hey, the score is not even either. Why dont you say something about that?" Pretty harsh but he told me after the game that the message was that I dont commit the fouls and I dont make the baskets. Teach the kids how not to foul and how to shoot!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by moose69


My question is, am I being to moralistic?? Should the foul count influence our calls, and what we look for.
And do any of you use this same phyilosphy,or know anyone who does.. and how do you deal with it?

I think when officials care about the foul count, they think much more about how they are going to be precieved than what is happening on the court. I personally do not care what the foul count is. If one team is shoving the other team all over the court, then need to adjust, not me. I go into every game calling the same game on both teams, if one is shoving in the post on one end, I will do the same on the other end. But if one team is doing that, and the other team is getting themselves in good position and moving there feet, I am not calling something cheap to make ME look better in the coaches and fans eyes. You adjust or you keep fouling.

Worrying about the foul count might help you in the short term, but not in the long term. You might have to face those teams or those coaches one day. When they realize that you will call the game the same no matter who is winning or who fouled who the most, then you will get much more respect. When you let foul counts, and *****y coaches complain influence how you call the game, they will expect that from you all the time. Why go there??

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

I could go into all the usual platitudes about how there's no rule requiring us to call an equal number of fouls on each team, etc., but we've all heard these before and, deep in our little striped hearts, we know we just call 'em as we see 'em.

I like to think of it this way. There's a reason one team has a lot more fouls than the other. That reason has nothing to do with any feelings on my part, but rather because that team is, for instance, acting more aggressive without having the proper coaching to not go over the contact line- they're slower and grabbier than the other team - they're just plain nasty, etc. It's their ability level and unability to execute properly on defense that's causing them to have fouls called. These are the same types of reasons that one team scores more than the other. The losing team doesn't have the same skill and execution level as the winning team.

In other words, it's the ability levels of the players that are determining the outcome of the game, including the score and the foul count, and you are not to artificially interfere with that process. Never, ever, ever change your focus intentionally to "watch for a foul" on one team or another. Continue to view the game in a proper manner, calling fouls that you see without regard to team or player.

If a team is fouling way out of proportion to the other team, it's their deficiency, not yours.

BTW - here's an old Davism for the coach that wants you to "even up" the fouls. Tell him you have to "even up" the coaching, first.

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Oct 20th, 2001 at 01:28 PM]

[RecRef]

Our job as a referee is to remove all personal feelings about what we are doing when we are on the court. By holding calls you are controlling the game. Note that I did not say managing the game but said controlling the game. Would you make the other team play with one hand behind their backs? Would you tell them that they could not screen or do jump shots? You are really doing the same type of thing if you hold your fouls.

[Richard Ogg]

I too have had many games where the foul count was far from even. In general I don't find that to be a problem. However, if the count gets to be something like 5-0, I will decide not to pass on a marginal foul commited by the team with none. That doesn't mean I'll ignore any fouls commited by the team that is fouling a lot, but on the next questionable or "grey" foul committed by the team with none I'll ring it up. It also doesn't mean I'm now calling the whole game differently, but I would like to see at least 1 foul on the board to replace that 0. My concern is not the comments, but game management comes into play if the disparency (even if justified) begins to influence the emotions of the players such that safety could become a problem. I'm still going to have to respond to a complaining coach about unequal fouls -- maybe this is a good time to start sharing those one-liners?!

"Yeah, and neither is the defensive play."
"I know -- but I only call what the players do."
"I know -- when are they going to start playing defense with their feet?"
"Is there a rule that says it should be even?"
"I can't help that coach -- I just call what happens."

[BktBallRef]

Good points, Richard.

[rockyroad]

I believe the point the original partner was trying to make is a very valid one, and it has nothing to do with what coaches think about me...if the foul discrepancy is large, that gives the coach something to sink his/her teeth into...that's not a good thing...yes, we all know it happens from time to time, but when two fairly evenly matched teams are playing, and the foul count is more than 5 off in the first half - it is a good time to "find" something on the other team...we don't make anything up, we don't ignore the other team, but we find something to call on the team with no fouls - it is the same situation when I have called three fouls in a row on white, a play clearly in my "area" happens, we have a double whistle for another foul on white - I tell my partner to take it...it's not chickening out - it's good game management...

[Mark Padgett]

I have to take issue with what seems to have become a popular theme in this thread. If two teams are "evenly matched" and the foul count is "out of balance", then my conclusion is that the two teams aren't really "evenly matched". Obviously, one is beating the other to the ball, and/or quicker on their first step to the hoop, and/or better at gaining rebounding position, etc. That's a major reason that the other team is fouling. I admit it might not be the only reason, but it is a major one.

Now, having said that, I know there are some times that when the count is out of balance it is partly because of a difference in the calls between partners, and one partner just happens to be lead a lot when one team is on offense. I have seen this happen, although it is not too common. What I do not believe, however, is that I am so bad that I only see fouls on one team and not the other to the point that if the fouls at halftime are 10-2, it is my fault.

And another thing - if "game management" means I intentionally call minor contact on one team just to "even up the fouls" so a coach won't have another reason to blow up, then the theory of "game management" sucks. I can't be responsible for every conceivable psychological problem a coach may have or change my game because players may get frustrated and then play rougher because they perceive the refs are against them.

I can only do so much out there, and my main job is to call the game consistently and equally. I'm not going to artificially manipulate the game just to avoid potential problems. I use tact and "game presence" to be in control, not change the way I make my calls.

If my main objective was to call the game in a manner that would head off any conceivable trouble at the expense of calling the game fairly and equally, I would officiate sewing bees.

[rockyroad]

Interesting points, and I can't say I disagree with any of them...however, the reality of the situation is that if an official wants to "move up", then foul count will matter... when doing college games, the evaluator tracks the foul count, how many you call from each position and how many on each team...when the evaluator asks "The foul count in the first half was 11-3. Why?", and I say all the things that Mark posted, I won't be working for that conference very long...

[JRutledge]

If a team is going to the basket, and their opponent is settling for jump shots, who do you think is going to have more fouls? If you have a team that presses, and a team that stays back in a zone, who do you think might have more fouls?

We cannot, and should not every try to "even up" fouls. The style of play dictates fouls, not necessarily what we call and how often. If you are a good official, you should not care what the coaches think. What the coaches think should be the last thing on your mind. If you are doing your job 50% of the time you are going to be right, and 50% of the time you are going to be wrong in someone's eyes. Coaches usually are only thinking of what you call against them, not what you call against the other team. They already think we are crooks by favoring one team. Why confirm their thinking by "looking for stuff to call." My job is not to be their friend or their crony. I have a job to do, and that is to call the game the same for both teams. If they do not adjust, then they need to lose anyway. The more you worry about me, the more you will lose. Just that simple. And even if I give you 10 more fouls than the other team, you still can win. Foul count can rarely determines the winner.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

I used to argue this point with coaches when asked,
using quick one liners like "I'm not here to balance the
books" or "I'm surprised you don't have more". But now
when a coach comments on the foul count I gather up
the most concerned look I can and just say "Geeze, no
kidding, thanks." This usually leaves them smiling as I
take off down the floor.