Vid request Travel Iowa State and Texas A And M

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A second touch is not necessary to define a dribble. If a player releases the ball and, in the judgment of the official, it is not a try or a pass, it is, by default, a dribble. If this happens after the pivot is lifted, the violation occurs when the ball hits the floor.

We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.

If you can say it's a bad pass and let a teammate come over and pick it up, there's no reason you can't say it's a bad shot and let him pick it up himself.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.

You might want to read 4.15.4 Situation A which states that it is a violation when the player pushes the ball to the floor.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

It is not a dribble until he touches it again. If his teammate comes to get it, it is a pass. It has everything to do with him being first to touch it. 4.44.3,4.15.4c, 9.5.

What happens after the drop determines if it is a dribble, or pass.

Incorrect. It is a dribble the moment it leaves his hands being pushed/dropped to the floor. A pass can also start the same way.

You just might not be able to tell which it is right away, but that doesn't change what it is. Sometimes you can tell what it is right away.

If it were any other way, a player who has released the ball on a dribble but hasn't yet touched it after the first bounce couldn't be considered to be in player control....and couldn't commit a player control foul. Do you really think a player who has released the ball on a dribble but before the first touch isn't in player control for that period?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I had this same play occur last Saturday. I was Lead and the defender blocked the Trail's view of the action. Even though it was outside the 3pt line on the wing, I came with a late whistle and called the violation.

I hope it wasn't this same view or you made a bad call.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

:45 left in second half. Amazing this was missed at this level.


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Or was it? So many quick to jump and call this a travel but officials at this level are far more disciplined then to call a travel just because it looked like one.

1) There's no definite knowledge he left the floor before releasing the ball. Sure, it really looks like it, but there is no way to be 100%. Just because you think there is a travel doesn't mean there is one.

2) If the player has any sort of basketball IQ he's trying to throw it off the defender before touching it again. This could've easily happened and we missed it from this angle, just like my first point.

I'm never telling this official he missed a call here. Interesting enough play I may ask him about it after the game, but only because I had a bad view and curious about what happened.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A second touch is not necessary to define a dribble. If a player releases the ball and, in the judgment of the official, it is not a try or a pass, it is, by default, a dribble. If this happens after the pivot is lifted, the violation occurs when the ball hits the floor.

This is the part I disagree with. I don't think the moment the ball hits the floor in the video it was, "by default" a dribble. It clearly wasn't a shot and frankly it clearly wasn't a pass as we normally know it. It also wasn't a dribble as we normally know it....he didn't push the ball down to the floor.

Frankly, I've been stuck in the air 3 and a half feet off the ground (or maybe a 1/4 inch)...and when I have dropped the ball I'm just trying to get rid of it before a foot hits the ground. The nearly exact play is in 4.44.3A(d). Player goes up with ball, defender touches it but does not prevent player from releasing ball. Player drops it to floor and touches it first after it bounces. Ruling--ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules...violation for starting dribble with pivot foot in air. I read this as it becomes a violation only when the player is first to touch the ball.

I agree with you that in a conventional situation...a dribble such as in Nevada's palming play or Cameron's example, that the player need not touch it again. I don't think though, in this play, that it becomes a dribble by default when it hits the floor. It's a live ball on the floor and, like in 4.44.3A(d), subsequent events and other rules will tell us what it was or was not. Thx

Also, AR 193 NCAAM says also that it is not a violation until the player is first to touch the ball.

[deecee]

This play, and video angle is tough to (1) see if the ball was released before the right foot left the ground and (2) if it was thrown off the defender.

From the T's standpoint it is also tough to see through the offensive player for defensive contact with the ball.

Tough call for the T, perhaps better call if any for the C or L. From everything I have seen I have a travel but this is not such a slam dunk.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm sure. If I throw the ball and it hits you it is a pass. I can go get it, dribble again ...

If it's a fumble touched by an opponent, or a deflected pass touched by an opponent, sure go ahead and dribble again, it's legal.

But what if it's not a fumble, nor is it a pass, rather, it's intentionally thrown against a opponent?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

BigCat: I see your point and would probably actually call it your way in a real game, but is the interpretation supported by the written rule? Ask the question, "Why did the player lose control?" Because he intentionally threw it away.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If it's a fumble touched by an opponent, or a deflected pass touched by an opponent, sure go ahead and dribble again, it's legal.

But what if it's not a fumble, nor is it a pass, rather, it's intentionally thrown against a opponent?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

BigCat: I see your point and would probably actually call it your way in a real game, but is the interpretation supported by the written rule? Ask the question, "Why did the player lose control?" Because he intentionally threw it away.

An opponent is "another player." Also there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to determine if something is a dribble or pass. I dribble across division line and pick up ball. There is no one on the other side of the court straight across from me. If I throw the ball there to no one it looks like a pass but if I run and get it after it bounces it actually was a dribble. If you are on my team and you run and get it or any other player on court does it is a pass.

There are times when we have to wait to see what happens next to know if a dribble or pass occurred. This video is an example of it. 4.44.3A(d) and Ar 193 support it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There are times when we have to wait to see what happens next to know if a dribble or pass occurred.

Agree. But we know what the subsequent play is in the following example. A1 ends his dribble and jumps with both feet off the floor to attempt a jump shot, or a pass, but seeing that it will probably be blocked, he intentionally throws the ball against the defensive player. The ball falls to the floor and it picked up by A1 who dribbles the ball. Legal, or illegal?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the
ball to another player.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. But we know what the subsequent play is in the following example. A1 ends his dribble and jumps with both feet off the floor to attempt a jump shot, or a pass, but seeing that it will probably be blocked, he intentionally throws the ball against the defensive player. The ball falls to the floor and it picked up by A1 who dribbles the ball. Legal, or illegal?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the
ball to another player.

It's legal....and it is considered a pass

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?

Originally Posted by BigCat

It's legal....and it is considered a pass

I'm convinced. Nice debate. Thanks.

[BillyMac]

When a player gets some air and changes his mind, some funny stuff can happen:

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

:45 left in second half. Amazing this was missed at this level.


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#11 definitely traveled by not pushing the ball to the floor to begin his dribble before lifting his pivot foot.