Illegal substitution?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm just doing a player T, quite frankly, rather than apply the indirect T to the coach. If the situation is unclear, I'm going to err on the side of caution. The case play you referenced earlier applies to a fight, but a fight is sufficiently rare and the penalties are intentionally harsh that I'm not going to apply the case play to any other situation.

If the sub Fails to report who he is going in for the case play stands for the proposition that you assume the worst for his team. He failed to report so we are directed to assume A3 was the player coming out. Bench personnel at time of T. I agree fights are rare but I think the play tells us what to do if we don't know who sub was coming in for.

In the other example I just tell the coach somebody, one of A1-5, has to come out because the sub became a player when he legally entered the Court. At that moment one of those became bench personnel. I don't care who, but one needs to sit a tic. It was his player that didn't say who he was subbing for. I don't think a coach would make a big deal out of this. I think he'd take one of them out without an issue.

If you allow A6 to go back out instead of one of the other players I think you are changing the rule saying that he became a player when he entered and the other player became bench personnel. You are saying he becomes a player when one of A1-5 leaves court and only when one of them leaves court do they become bench personnel.

As you said earlier, it's theoretical really.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If the sub Fails to report who he is going in for the case play stands for the proposition that you assume the worst for his team. He failed to report so we are directed to assume A3 was the player coming out. Bench personnel at time of T. I agree fights are rare but I think the play tells us what to do if we don't know who sub was coming in for.

In the other example I just tell the coach somebody, one of A1-5, has to come out because the sub became a player when he legally entered the Court. At that moment one of those became bench personnel. I don't care who, but one needs to sit a tic. It was his player that didn't say who he was subbing for. I don't think a coach would make a big deal out of this. I think he'd take one of them out without an issue.

If you allow A6 to go back out instead of one of the other players I think you are changing the rule saying that he became a player when he entered and the other player became bench personnel. You are saying he becomes a player when one of A1-5 leaves court and only when one of them leaves court do they become bench personnel.

As you said earlier, it's theoretical really.

No, I'm acknowledging that A6 became a player when he came onto the court. I'm just saying we have no way of enforcing 3-3-4 if we don't know who he was supposed to replace. I have no interest in enforcing a rule that was rendered unenforceable by the NFHS change many years ago.

My hypothetical case is meant to determine how committed you are to the rule. Nevadaref is clear that he would call a T if the coach did not comply. He has earned himself a reputation where such a T would likely not affect him. I can't say the same. If I could justify it by rule, I would do it, but I can't get there.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, I'm acknowledging that A6 became a player when he came onto the court. I'm just saying we have no way of enforcing 3-3-4 if we don't know who he was supposed to replace. I have no interest in enforcing a rule that was rendered unenforceable by the NFHS change many years ago.

My hypothetical case is meant to determine how committed you are to the rule. Nevadaref is clear that he would call a T if the coach did not comply. He has earned himself a reputation where such a T would likely not affect him. I can't say the same. If I could justify it by rule, I would do it, but I can't get there.

Last comment for me...I think. A6 became a player, you have acknowledged. The other end of the rule says the other player became bench personnel the moment A6 became a player. One of A1-5 became bench personnel. I guess I don't understand why it bothers you to say "coach, somebody has to come out because when A6 became a player somebody became bench personnel. The coach sent A6 in for somebody, didn't pull him back, let him enter and go to end line throw in area. I'd say coach it's too late to simply pull him back. I don't think coach would give you hard time. If he did over this there would likely be other issues. The rule clearly says somebody becomes bench personnel when A6 becomes a player. Take care.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Last comment for me...I think. A6 became a player, you have acknowledged. The other end of the rule says the other player became bench personnel the moment A6 became a player. One of A1-5 became bench personnel. I guess I don't understand why it bothers you to say "coach, somebody has to come out because when A6 became a player somebody became bench personnel. The coach sent A6 in for somebody, didn't pull him back, let him enter and go to end line throw in area. I'd say coach it's too late to simply pull him back. I don't think coach would give you hard time. If he did over this there would likely be other issues. The rule clearly says somebody becomes bench personnel when A6 becomes a player. Take care.

I agree with this post and would handle the situation this way.

[Rich]

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

Me too. This is all so silly.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

What we were talking about at this point was a substitute reporting, being beckoned, entering, and walking to the end line for an end line throw in. Then the coach changing his mind. There is no timeout involved.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

What we were talking about at this point was a substitute reporting, being beckoned, entering, and walking to the end line for an end line throw in. Then the coach changing his mind. There is no timeout involved.

If the coach sends a sub in and at this point there are 6 players on the court and the coach changes his mind and says oops i want that sub back on the bench I'm ok with that. If a player has walked off the court and the coach changes his mind, then the sub can leave but the player that stepped off has to wait and a new player must be made available.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

Do you also allow the teams to start whomever they wish despite what was submitted at the ten minute mark?

Do you also take the same position for intermissions? You don't care which five were in the game at the end of the previous quarter even though the NFHS recently instructed officials to pay attention to this!?!?

You are setting a poor example for the officials you assign.

[ODog]

I'm wayyyyy late to the party here, but my question arising from this thread isn't so much about the "who's coming out" aspect. It's about the reporting aspect.

What I've learned from this is that something most officials on our board do is probably something we shouldn't be doing:
Sub is at the table, team calls timeout. Official heads to the reporting area, reports the timeout, instructs timer to start the clock, says "Sub(s), you're good" and beckons, then heads to the timeout position and the rest is history.

I'm getting the impression this isn't the best idea. What do you guys do? Report the timeout, ignore the sub at the table, then just see what happens when the timeout is over? Is the theory that this kid has already "reported," and since we're now in a TO, he won't need to be beckoned when play resumes?

How does that approach eliminate the possibility of the OP, when the sub never enters the court following the TO and the opposing coach takes issue? Do we make the sub report before the warning horn?

I can get behind this and will start doing this tonight, I just want to make sure I'm understanding it properly.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by ODog

I'm wayyyyy late to the party here, but my question arising from this thread isn't so much about the "who's coming out" aspect. It's about the reporting aspect.

What I've learned from this is that something most officials on our board do is probably something we shouldn't be doing:
Sub is at the table, team calls timeout. Official heads to the reporting area, reports the timeout, instructs timer to start the clock, says "Sub(s), you're good" and beckons, then heads to the timeout position and the rest is history.

I'm getting the impression this isn't the best idea. What do you guys do? Report the timeout, ignore the sub at the table, then just see what happens when the timeout is over? Is the theory that this kid has already "reported," and since we're now in a TO, he won't need to be beckoned when play resumes?

How does that approach eliminate the possibility of the OP, when the sub never enters the court following the TO and the opposing coach takes issue? Do we make the sub report before the warning horn?

I can get behind this and will start doing this tonight, I just want to make sure I'm understanding it properly.

Personally, I do the part in bold. If I see a kid report after the first horn, I won't let them in. That's about all for me. Others may do things differently.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Last comment for me...I think. A6 became a player, you have acknowledged. The other end of the rule says the other player became bench personnel the moment A6 became a player. One of A1-5 became bench personnel. I guess I don't understand why it bothers you to say "coach, somebody has to come out because when A6 became a player somebody became bench personnel. The coach sent A6 in for somebody, didn't pull him back, let him enter and go to end line throw in area. I'd say coach it's too late to simply pull him back. I don't think coach would give you hard time. If he did over this there would likely be other issues. The rule clearly says somebody becomes bench personnel when A6 becomes a player. Take care.

The one change to this is that he can withdraw A6 for A7, but will still have to withdraw someone from A1-A5.