Assistant chirping from stands

[BigT]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I ran into a coach at a gas station the next morning after I T'ed him up. I was pumped to see him.

And how did it go?

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by BigT

And how did it go?

He either didn't recognize me out of context (we were about 40 miles from where the game took place and I had no idea that he lives so close to me), or he acted like he didn't recognize me.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I've been turning this one over in my mind since last night, so I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think.

I had an open night last night because I ran a marathon a week ago so I didn't schedule anything for this week. I was feeling recovered for the most part so I took a JV double header that a school close by needed someone for. JV girls games are just brutal.

In the boys game, a guy keeps chirping about calls from behind the bench. No big deal, I figured it was a fan so whatever. At halftime I notice him coming out of the locker room with the team. I meant to tell the HC to keep him under control since he's a coach but it slipped my mind. 4th quarter, about 6 min left in the game. He says "Oh you guys are just missing all kinds of stuff, sir." So I put air in the whistle and whack him. As I'm reporting the foul, the HC wants to know what the deal is. I said "Coach, I'm not going to have your assistant chirping at us anymore." He starts out onto the court saying "Wait a minute, you need to pay attention to the game and ignore what's going on over here." He's a pretty big guy (probably 6'3" or so and 275) and I'm not (5'9" 150), and he is right in my face on the court. I tell him "Coach, you're going to want to go back to the bench," and he walks (EDITED TO ADD: walks even closer to me) so that we are maybe 5" apart. I whack him and walk away.

I was working with a partner who I'd never worked with before and who told me before the game this was his first year back since the 90s (he quit when his kids started playing). If I were him, I would have come over and offered support/try to take over to get the calling official out of the situation, but he just stood at the baseline ready to administer the FT.

After the game right after we observe the handshakes, the assistant who got the first T walks up and says "Can I ask you guys a question?" and I didn't really want to, but my partner said yeah. So I stand there for a second and he first apologizes then he starts questioning the T. I just said "I'm not going to discuss that with you. If you're not the head coach, keep your mouth shut on the bench," and I walked away. My partner stood there and talked to him for a few minutes. He said the guy thought he was okay to say what he wanted because he ended with "sir."

Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?

I feel like I catch more crap from coaches because I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. Maybe it's in my head, but I don't see the older guys on my crew have coaches push them as much it seems like they try to get away with with me.

It is awesome you are in that great of shape, keep bragging.
Yes both T's were justified, were you calm doing them?
You cant avoid the second everyone saw it coming and the bully deserved it.
He is clueless so mentioning it wouldnt help IMO
He was the jerk for staying and talking to the VHC instead of going to the lock room. You dont have to justify. He knows as the VHC he crossed the line and you just took care of business. It never goes well answering a question from someone who gets a T. You can talk until you are blue in the face it will not change their behavior. You are wasting your time. Call a great came and take care of business.

Call your game have fun and keep taking care of business. Sounds like you are doing a great job.

[tnolan]

UNI,
Keep in mind, I only know what you've told me, so you could be a rookie or about a 12 yr vet. So, I'll offer my opinion on your situation and you may take it FWIW.

First off, I'm also a younger/smaller looking official but have been around long enough to gain respect where needed. With that being said, impressions do get made regardless, by fans and coaches and I do somewhat agree that it's easier to get "worked" when you look younger. So things that help with that are trying to be the "R" more often than not. Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech. Work on good mechanics and a strong confident whistle. Show confidence in your calls and obviously knowledge of the rules and applying them correctly is paramount. With those things in place, any poor first impressions should be gone a few plays into the game.

Onto your situation and 4 questions...
While the comments from the assistant are not warranted in the least, you may have been better off halting play on the next dead ball and having a short discussion with the head coach in regards to his bench personnel. Something along the lines of "Coach, please take control of your bench/assistant. We're not going to listen to anymore of their comments before issuing a technical and that will also result in an indirect against you."

As for the HC technical, I would suggest using a different set of words for the coach in that situation. Again, his actions were also unwarranted and disrespectful and his statement is incorrect as he's implying that you're not paying attention to the game, while also implying that his bench can basically do whatever they want as you're not supposed to pay attention to them. But, even though it wasn't your intent, your original statement could come off as threatening or derogatory. Something better might be, "Coach...please go back to your bench." But would this have avoided the T? Who knows? Honestly, if he was already face to face with you, there is no excuse for that at all. You could've backed up or walked away after administering the technical and if the coach expresses that he'd like to discuss it then, you can appease him but only if he agrees to do so in a decent manner. Going back to my first point...had you informed him earlier about his bench personnel, you'd have 120% justification for the technical and he'd have nothing to question you about.

So...were both justified?
Maybe both could've been avoided, but were you wrong in calling both? No.
And depending on timing, your partner could've switched with you to take some heat off you and move you away from the coach. But things happen quickly on the court, and you also don't want to leave 10 players unattended.
Things like that can sometimes be difficult with only 2 officials.

You could've brought the situation up post-game with your partner and get his take on it. Take his opinion with a grain of salt, just as you would any other official and determine if it's worthwhile.

Also, you honestly don't owe anything to the coach post-game, even in a JV game. And this goes along with confidence in your calls. Right or wrong, that's how you saw it, that's how you called it, move on, game on, game over. Your area may be different, but we leave the court immediately once the horn sounds (an obviously if we're positive the game ended correctly)

Coaches are strange birds...when talking to them, you don't want to be the guy who ignores them completely. But you also don't need to give them a thesis on why you called what you did. I always let them know, "quick questions/quick answers". I've heard others say, "Coach, do you have a question?" If not, then we have nothing to discuss. When coaches ask questions, they deserve answers. But when they're just spouting off at the mouth, there are fine lines and key words that warrant penalties. But also, if you are discussing with coaches, avoid certain key words as well.

If you felt the need to appease him post-game or even when he questioned the bench technical, "Coach, I had heard enough from your bench and didn't like their last comment that questioned our judgement on calls."

And LOL at him thinking he can say whatever he wants because he adds 'sir' to the end. Reminds me of Ricky Bobby....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-Id_fuXFA

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

UNI,
Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech.

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Rich

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

I'd do what's required and not a bit more.

But if I tried to cover anything else, I'd expect my partners to jump in and save me from myself.

I was a PIAA official from 1987 through 1994. Worked my first varsity game and 3-person game there. I grew up and went to college in PA. They still make officials wear that goofy keystone patch on their sleeve?

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd do what's required and not a bit more.

But if I tried to cover anything else, I'd expect my partners to jump in and save me from myself.

I was a PIAA official from 1987 through 1994. Worked my first varsity game and 3-person game there. I grew up and went to college in PA. They still make officials wear that goofy keystone patch on their sleeve?

which is fine. and many guys in PIAA do the same.
personally, i find it a good time to go over a few items for "preventative officiating". but by no means am i reciting the rule book out there! so, to each their own. and hopefully the OP takes both of our advice and finds what suits him the best.

oh nice! yep, we're still "patched"
yeah, a lot has changed since '94.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tnolan

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

We're required to address sportsmanship, so I tell the players to handle their knuckleheads. Like Rich, I only do what's required because they're not listening.

With coaches, I mention sportsmanship because I have to. I ask them that stupid "legally equipped" question because I have to. I mention timeouts because that's something I've actually found helps; it's anecdotal and subject to change though. My captains meeting takes about ten seconds, and my coach's meeting takes about 15.

They aren't impressed by your speech, regardless of how thorough or articulate you are. They want that meeting over more than you do, and a thorough speech just keeps them away from their kids.

do what's expected in your area, but I'm with Rich, at the very least the advice to use your pregame speech as a way of impressing the coaches is not sound. IMO of course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

We're required to address sportsmanship, so I tell the players to handle their knuckleheads. Like Rich, I only do what's required because they're not listening.

To say they do not listen is overstated. They might not listen for long, but I believe they listen. I just think we have to keep is short and sweet. We also have to give a sportsmanship talk, but nothing word for word. Some people have the right energy or the right attitude and they will control that meeting for the few seconds it lasts.

Originally Posted by Adam

With coaches, I mention sportsmanship because I have to. I ask them that stupid "legally equipped" question because I have to. I mention timeouts because that's something I've actually found helps; it's anecdotal and subject to change though. My captains meeting takes about ten seconds, and my coach's meeting takes about 15.

I personally do not like to even talk about timeouts as I think coaches know the rule and know they have to tell us. That might have been a concern in the first couple years of the rule, but now this is not an issue. They do it in college and the rule is basically the same and coaches are not apart of that meeting at all in college.

Peace

[refinks]

Originally Posted by Rich

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

My captain/coaches pregame seems to vary, even though I try to keep it the same every time.

I'll quickly tell captains to be good leaders on and off the court and help us out with any problem teammates, sometimes I'll throw in a joke about not hanging on the rim if they dunk, then I let them go.

Since my state is a single meeting with the coaches and captains, I then ask the coaches the mandatory questions (properly equipped, good sportsmanship) and of course they always answer with a yes or "They better be", then I'll remind them of the coaching box and tell them to get their huddles wrapped up on the first horn so we can get going on the second horn. I'll ask them if they have any questions and wish them luck. Usually takes about a minute, tops.

I've worked with several guys that feel like they need to lay out the court, the boundary line colors, the POE, how we're gonna call it, and all that. Those pregames suck and usually drag. Most of the time the captains aren't paying attention anyways, so why keep them there longer than necessary.

[deecee]

Rich I think my captains meeting may be shorter than yours .

All I say is I expect good sportsmanship, then ask if they have any questions (always a NO), then ask my partner if they have anything to add.

Half the time they do, and its usually the following 2 things

1. who's the speaking captain (I just don't understand this)
2. They reiterate sportsmanship and something about TO's

The last time my meeting was a bit longer was during a rivalry game where the previous game had an altercation. I reminded the teams to keep their cool and should things escalate to make sure their benches stay put. Same was said to the coaches.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

... who's the speaking captain (I just don't understand this).

I don't ask for a speaking captain, but those that do take 3-1-1 quite literally.

2-7-1: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

3-1-2: The captain is the representative of his/her team and may address an official on matters of interpretation or to obtain essential information, if it is done in a courteous manner.

If the official doesn't know who the "real" captain is, who will he notify that the game is about to begin? Who will the officials discuss matters of interpretation with, or obtain essential information from?

I've heard two follow up questions to, "Who's the speaking captain": "What's your number?", and, "Are you starting?".

And everybody be sure to tell everybody that, "It's the blue line all the way around".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?

1. Ts are for unsporting behavior, if you feel the actions were unsporting, then yes they were justified. What we think ultimately does not matter when you were there.

2. Sounds like you tried to do enough and it did not work.

3. No, never. Let that go.

4. Probably inexperience, chalk it up as a learning experience. Sometimes you cannot rely on your partner to save you from a coach. Take care of business.

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I feel like I catch more crap from coaches because I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. Maybe it's in my head, but I don't see the older guys on my crew have coaches push them as much it seems like they try to get away with with me.

I used to say that the more grey hair you have, the more they leave you alone. That was true for me and many others when we started in our early 20s. Just know when someone sees you more that usually goes away when they have confidence in your ability, but it takes time sometimes.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I used to say that the more grey hair you have, the more they leave you alone. That was true for me and many others when we started in our early 20s. Just know when someone sees you more that usually goes away when they have confidence in your ability, but it takes time sometimes.

Peace

Great point. Coaches, and people in general, would rather work with someone they feel comfortable with even if that person is not as qualified than a rookie. The old saying along the lines of "the devil that you know..."