Swinging elbow contact (video)

[BlueDevilRef]

Ok, is there any other signal if this is ruled flagrant? I realize it is not a T bc of live ball but do you just give regular signal and report as flagrant?


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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Ok, is there any other signal if this is ruled flagrant? I realize it is not a T bc of live ball but do you just give regular signal and report as flagrant?


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Pretty much. There is no special signal for flagrant in NFHS, nor is there one for FF2 in NCAA. It's probably better this way; we don't want to be having instant DQs on the floor in this situation. Not having a signal gives A) the crew a chance to discuss before reporting, and/or B) the calling official a chance to process and decide while he's moving to report.

Of course you can always use the unofficial "'yer outa here!" ejection signal if the situation truly calls for it.


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[deecee]

At minimum intentional, but I have a flagrant. Should have had a whistle for violation first. Then any contact would have been a T, but if the contact was similar to what this video shows I still have a flagrant.

[ballgame99]

No one has really mentioned it, but typically when a rebounder is swinging like this it is because the other team has been coming in late trying to steal the ball, maybe if a couple of those plays had been called fouls earlier in the game you never even get to this point. In this particular play WHite 4 comes diving in on the rebounder could probably have been called for a foul right before she gets popped in the face.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Pretty much. There is no special signal for flagrant in NFHS, nor is there one for FF2 in NCAA. It's probably better this way; we don't want to be having instant DQs on the floor in this situation. Not having a signal gives A) the crew a chance to discuss before reporting, and/or B) the calling official a chance to process and decide while he's moving to report.

Of course you can always use the unofficial "'yer outa here!" ejection signal if the situation truly calls for it.


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Good info in this reply, thanks!


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[deecee]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

No one has really mentioned it, but typically when a rebounder is swinging like this it is because the other team has been coming in late trying to steal the ball, maybe if a couple of those plays had been called fouls earlier in the game you never even get to this point. In this particular play WHite 4 comes diving in on the rebounder could probably have been called for a foul right before she gets popped in the face.

Who cares what may have happened. Call fouls based on what HAS happened.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm not making anything up. Watch the video. There is an easy jump ball/swinging elbows situation where you can call either.

There's an elbow swing. A jump. An elbow swing. A jump. WACK a face shot. I'm not clipping another obvious video to make my point. Go to youtube and slow it down if it's too fast for you.

Are you seeing a jump ball at full speed or at .25 speed. My games are played at full speed.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Are you seeing a jump ball at full speed or at .25 speed. My games are played at full speed.

Full. Looks to me like there's an initial excessive swinging of elbows with the defense having hands on the ball. I'm probably making a call here based off what I think this game has looked like after watching this play.

Why let her swing around and not get it right away with a clump of players involved?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

Why let her swing around and not get it right away with a clump of players involved?

I don't see a jump ball, and our job isn't to anticipate "what" may transpire when making a call. In games like this you could probably get away with making up a call (I don't see why you would want to do it). But in some games you would only get yourself in hot water and this video and your explanation would most likely not sit well with you assignor if it ever gets to that.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't see a jump ball, and our job isn't to anticipate "what" may transpire when making a call. In games like this you could probably get away with making up a call (I don't see why you would want to do it). But in some games you would only get yourself in hot water and this video and your explanation would most likely not sit well with you assignor if it ever gets to that.

It's not making up a call. It's the same concept behind calling a jump ball instead of a travel even though the defender didn't have their hand on the ball for more than a step.

She's clearly swinging around wildly with her elbows. The official made a mistake letting it go, twice.

I have a violation and I'm calling it when she violates the swinging elbows rule.

I'm not sure why we're bringing assigners into this, but any decent assigner who also assigns me my 5a/collegiate is asking me why I'm letting a player at a low level swing around wildly and waiting for someone to get hurt to blow my whistle.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

Who cares what may have happened. Call fouls based on what HAS happened.

Agreed, if we are looking at a play in isolation.

I agree with ballgame's hypothetical that IF there were similar "reaching in for rebounds" earlier in the game and IF those had been called fouls (assuming contact was made, etc.), then there is a LOWER (but not zero) likelihood of the play in the OP happening.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's the same concept behind calling a jump ball instead of a travel even though the defender didn't have their hand on the ball for more than a step.

Just having the hand on the ball doesn't necessitate a jump ball. If that were the case there would be dozens of jump balls each game.

There is no jump ball.

A violation should have been called.

Any action after the violation would have been dead ball contact.

However we have a swung, waist was the pivot point, elbow to the face. Flagrant.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

any decent assigner who also assigns me my 5a/collegiate is asking me why I'm letting a player at a low level swing around wildly and waiting for someone to get hurt to blow my whistle.

He won't be asking you, "why didn't you fabricate a jump ball there instead?"

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dad

It's not making up a call. It's the same concept behind calling a jump ball instead of a travel even though the defender didn't have their hand on the ball for more than a step.

She's clearly swinging around wildly with her elbows. The official made a mistake letting it go, twice.

I have a violation and I'm calling it when she violates the swinging elbows rule.

I'm not sure why we're bringing assigners into this, but any decent assigner who also assigns me my 5a/collegiate is asking me why I'm letting a player at a low level swing around wildly and waiting for someone to get hurt to blow my whistle.

I don't think anybody is arguing the possibility of calling excessive swinging of the elbows. What's being questioned is your ability to see a held ball from this camera angle.

That travel/held ball concept is not anything I've ever heard of.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

Just having the hand on the ball doesn't necessitate a jump ball.

I agree, but with other factors it does -- shooter. I'm not calling a jump here, but if the official isn't going to call a violation then I'm okay with a jump. Anything to stop this kind of play from continuing.