UK vs Louisville--Shot Clock Violation in Final Minute-Reset Clock?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because it is not the time of the violation when BY RULE the timer is to stop the game clock, but upon the sounding of the official's whistle to recognize such violation. I believe that I was clear about that in my previous post.

Just as if a travel were to occur at 13.1 seconds remaining and the official whistles for it at 12.7, the correct time for the game clock would be 12.7, not the time of the violation.

I would only agree on shot clock violations where the ball was shot and failed to hit the rim. Then there may be discrepancy between game and shot clock. However in the case where a player is dribbling and the officials blow the whistle, say a second after the horn, I would go with the math and deduct the shot clock from game clock as what to set my timer at.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

I would only agree on shot clock violations where the ball was shot and failed to hit the rim. Then there may be discrepancy between game and shot clock. However in the case where a player is dribbling and the officials blow the whistle, say a second after the horn, I would go with the math and deduct the shot clock from game clock as what to set my timer at.

Real officials follow the rules, not make up their own.

For example, the clock rules for a shot clock violation due to an airball are different in the NBA and NCAA. The people working those games don't just decide upon a number to tell the timer. They follow the rule for the level of play that they are working.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Real officials follow the rules, not make up their own.

Are you suggesting he is making up his own rules? If I am running down to Lead and see the game clock at 45.3 and the shot clock at 30 and we have a shot clock violation on the ensuing possession then you bet your but I am putting 15.3 on the game clock before the next inbound, even if the timer is slow and only stops the game clock at 13.9 for example.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Are you suggesting he is making up his own rules? If I am running down to Lead and see the game clock at 45.3 and the shot clock at 30 and we have a shot clock violation on the ensuing possession then you bet your but I am putting 15.3 on the game clock before the next inbound, even if the timer is slow and only stops the game clock at 13.9 for example.

Yeah, Nevada I hate to say it, but I think you're over-interpreting this. One of the rules fundamentals is that "the whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)." Usually definite knowledge relative to the time involved is not available, plus there is some tolerance for human reaction time in stopping the clock. But this shot clock case is a unique scenario for which definite knowledge is available and precise. I know for certain exactly when (on the game clock) the violation occurred. I can't see any reason I would not, therefore, put that time on the clock.


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[APG]

I like how the NBA handles this....a team can only "waste" 24 seconds by rule if there's a shot clock violation.

EX: Team A has the ball to start the 2nd Q. They shoot the ball at 11:37. Team A's try does not hit the rim and a violation is call at 11:34.

Ruling: Shot clock violation. The officials will reset the clock to 11:36.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Are you suggesting he is making up his own rules? If I am running down to Lead and see the game clock at 45.3 and the shot clock at 30 and we have a shot clock violation on the ensuing possession then you bet your but I am putting 15.3 on the game clock before the next inbound, even if the timer is slow and only stops the game clock at 13.9 for example.

Technically, he isn't making up his own rules. He is applying a rule from another level of basketball to the game that he is working and that isn't appropriate. The NFHS GAME CLOCK rule is very clear. The timer is to stop the clock when the official sounds the whistle, not when the ball becomes dead.
The point is that this is a simple application of the timing rules for high school games. The game clock is to stop on the whistle, not the shot clock horn. Sorry, that you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Yeah, Nevada I hate to say it, but I think you're over-interpreting this. One of the rules fundamentals is that "the whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)." Usually definite knowledge relative to the time involved is not available, plus there is some tolerance for human reaction time in stopping the clock. But this shot clock case is a unique scenario for which definite knowledge is available and precise. I know for certain exactly when (on the game clock) the violation occurred. I can't see any reason I would not, therefore, put that time on the clock.

When the ball becomes dead doesn't matter one bit. See above.

Originally Posted by APG

I like how the NBA handles this....a team can only "waste" 24 seconds by rule if there's a shot clock violation.

EX: Team A has the ball to start the 2nd Q. They shoot the ball at 11:37. Team A's try does not hit the rim and a violation is call at 11:34.

Ruling: Shot clock violation. The officials will reset the clock to 11:36.

I like that NBA rule too, but I won't be using it any HS or college games that I work because it isn't applicable to those levels. If the NCAA, NFHS, or CIF adopted this ruling, then I would be happy to apply it.

[BigCat]

There is an ncaa m case play wherein there is 30 seconds on the clock when the ball is inbounded to team A in its BC. At 17 seconds, A still in BC. The ruling is violation and put the game clock back at 20.

NFHS plays say time can be corrected if clock isnt stopped at the time of the whistle. I would think that anybody using a shot clock would have rules specific to these situations. If they dont, your stuck with regular nfhs timing rules. Whistle rules.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I like that NBA rule too, but I won't be using it any HS or college games that I work because it isn't applicable to those levels. If the NCAA, NFHS, or CIF adopted this ruling, then I would be happy to apply it.

Nevada, the NBA (as related by APG) and NCAA ruling are different if the shot-clock try is attempted prior to the shot-clock expiring. In NCAA if a player from Team A attempts a try and the shot-clock expires, team A has satisfied half of the requirement (i.e., attempting a shot-clock try). That's why the game clock isn't reset.

Meantime, to speak to one of your earlier comments:

Just as if a travel were to occur at 13.1 seconds remaining and the official whistles for it at 12.7, the correct time for the game clock would be 12.7, not the time of the violation.

First, that's a case of the official's reaction time. There's always a bit of a lag time between what we see on the court and how fast we react. However, in the case of a shot-clock violation where the infraction is not attempting the try we know that infraction took place 30 (or 35) seconds after the possession began. Let's adjust your earlier scenario: In NF, an official calls a travel with 13.1 on the game clock but the clock isn't stopped until 12.7. If any of the officials knows there was 13.1 on the game clock when the whistle blew they're allowed - by rule - to put that time back on the clock. NF 5.10.1 situation C is the closest thing I can find to this situation:

5.10.1 SITUATION C:

As the official calls a three-second lane violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows five seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at five seconds; (b) at four seconds; (c) at three seconds; or (d) the time runs out completely.

RULING: No correction is needed in (a). In (b), (c) and (d), the referee will order five seconds put on the clock.

Again, it's a case of definite knowledge. Yes, I know 5-10 deals with "timing errors" but scenario B in the case play doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake/error. The violation might have taken place at 5.1 on a clock which doesn't show tenths of seconds but the clock isn't stopped until 4.9. All that matters is we saw the clock at one number when we blew our whistle and it ticked down to another. In the "no shot-clock try" scenario we know when the violation takes effect so that's definite knowledge.