First Fighting Ejection

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Geof

It is pretty simple. And maybe that is why it is written the way it is written. The wording makes it pretty black and white. I don't agree with it.

OK, and what are you going to do with it happens to you in a game?

Originally Posted by Geof

The point I was making is that if the comments are so over the top as you stated, that person is being tossed regardless of the other player's reaction. If the comments aren't vulgar or abusive, that person's ability to stay in the game rests upon his opponent's reaction. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether that is a proper punishment.

You realize a lot of fights are not going to be that simple right? You realize that fights might take place without you even knowing what was said and that you only see the main reaction but never hear the words exchanged? And not all situations with fighting are situations where actual words are said. The common example is clapping in someone's face and getting a reaction like a punch. The rule covers all those situations as a fighting if the end result is physical contact or attempt at physical contact like a punch, kick or strike of some kind.

Originally Posted by Geof

I refuse to be the person who blindly accepts something without either understanding it or questioning it. The rules should be enforced as they are written, but that shouldn't ever deter someone from trying to discuss the validity or reason for a rule.

That is certainly your right. Just keep in mind if you do not enforce this rule when it happens, you might not work for the people you wish to work for. I am certainly not asking you to accept the rule, but constantly questioning the rule is also not going to help add anything when a fight takes place. If you ignore the actions of the instigator, you will have bigger problems on your hands on that game and afterwards. We are in the age of video and people will question your actions if you do not properly enforce the rule. And your being indifferent in the rule is not going to be a good answer.

Peace

[Pantherdreams]

My only concern (and what I inferring in what others are writing) would be if the fight response is an overreaction on the part of the 2nd player. While I agree that if someone does something to start a fight and gets hit they are both culpable, we can't seem to agree on what exactly an "unsporting" act that leads to a fight might be. Some we know when we see it but others seem to be contextual and an overreaction.

Examples w/context:

A) Its been a physical game all game. Players making lots of contact on cutters, rebounding and post position are physical contests. You get all the ones you should, teams are just battling hard. Team A continues to get the worse of it on the scoreboard and aren't handling it well. Late in the game the same play that has been happening all game on a cut or rebound happens (maybe its a foul you call, maybe its not) A5 jumps up and starts to swing at B5. I can't say what A5 did was unsporting but it did result in B5 swinging. Now they both have to go?

B) B2 makes a tough and 1 layup through contact. Comes out celebrating. Something in the celebration either for cultural/personal reasons or just out of frustration causes A4 to jump and start swinging? Do they both go? What if the celebration was something we would tell the kid to knock off or even T up - do they both go now?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

My only concern (and what I inferring in what others are writing) would be if the fight response is an overreaction on the part of the 2nd player. While I agree that if someone does something to start a fight and gets hit they are both culpable, we can't seem to agree on what exactly an "unsporting" act that leads to a fight might be. Some we know when we see it but others seem to be contextual and an overreaction.

Examples w/context:

A) Its been a physical game all game. Players making lots of contact on cutters, rebounding and post position are physical contests. You get all the ones you should, teams are just battling hard. Team A continues to get the worse of it on the scoreboard and aren't handling it well. Late in the game the same play that has been happening all game on a cut or rebound happens (maybe its a foul you call, maybe its not) A5 jumps up and starts to swing at B5. I can't say what A5 did was unsporting but it did result in B5 swinging. Now they both have to go?

B) B2 makes a tough and 1 layup through contact. Comes out celebrating. Something in the celebration either for cultural/personal reasons or just out of frustration causes A4 to jump and start swinging? Do they both go? What if the celebration was something we would tell the kid to knock off or even T up - do they both go now?

Not a basketball official but I do lurk here a lot. From reading what people have written, isn't the distinction whether you call a technical foul? If you don't call a technical on A5 or A4 then their act wasn't part of the fight. But if you do call a technical foul on them and a fight results, then the technical from A5 or A4 retroactively becomes part of that fight. (If you didn't call it, then they didn't commit an unsporting act?)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

My only concern (and what I inferring in what others are writing) would be if the fight response is an overreaction on the part of the 2nd player. While I agree that if someone does something to start a fight and gets hit they are both culpable, we can't seem to agree on what exactly an "unsporting" act that leads to a fight might be. Some we know when we see it but others seem to be contextual and an overreaction.

Examples w/context:

A) Its been a physical game all game. Players making lots of contact on cutters, rebounding and post position are physical contests. You get all the ones you should, teams are just battling hard. Team A continues to get the worse of it on the scoreboard and aren't handling it well. Late in the game the same play that has been happening all game on a cut or rebound happens (maybe its a foul you call, maybe its not) A5 jumps up and starts to swing at B5. I can't say what A5 did was unsporting but it did result in B5 swinging. Now they both have to go?

B) B2 makes a tough and 1 layup through contact. Comes out celebrating. Something in the celebration either for cultural/personal reasons or just out of frustration causes A4 to jump and start swinging? Do they both go? What if the celebration was something we would tell the kid to knock off or even T up - do they both go now?

A) NO
B) NO

Neither of these plays have anything to do with a deliberate dead ball shove that leads to a fight. One is live ball contact, like a block/push/hold/whatever, that led to the opponent throwing a punch. Both DO NOT get tossed for this. One foul is a common personal foul the other is a flagrant that results in DQ.

The other scenario is just as absurd. One player is happy, and as long as the celebration doesn't hit unsportsmanlike then we have a flagrant on the kid for throwing the punch and the kid who celebrated gets nothing unless there is retaliation.

side note: you could also have a clear shove during a live ball that leads to a fight where both players would get tossed. You have to judge the action as one that is instigating or "non basketball" as I like to think of it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

My only concern (and what I inferring in what others are writing) would be if the fight response is an overreaction on the part of the 2nd player. While I agree that if someone does something to start a fight and gets hit they are both culpable, we can't seem to agree on what exactly an "unsporting" act that leads to a fight might be. Some we know when we see it but others seem to be contextual and an overreaction.

I do not recall the rule saying you have to eject an instigator. This is why all of us get paid the big bucks. The rule is only so that you do not only punish the person that threw the punch, but the actions that proceeded it also matter. If you judge that no instigator was involved, then you have no instigator. But if a clear unsporting action proceeded the "strike" you consider the instigator and their actions fighting.

Do not make it so complicated.

Peace

[Refhoop]

Personally, I use this forum as an opportunity to get clarity on rules and the spirit of the rules. The bantering about the validity of any rules doesn't prohibit me from enforcing those rules. I find that reading your commentary helps me better understand the who, what, when, why and how...
Thanks for keeping it real!

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Personally, I use this forum as an opportunity to get clarity on rules and the spirit of the rules. The bantering about the validity of any rules doesn't prohibit me from enforcing those rules. I find that reading your commentary helps me better understand the who, what, when, why and how...

Thanks for keeping it real!

EXACTLY why I am here as well. Being discerning about the rules actually helps me understand and make accurate application of them. Or at least that is my hope, to understand more in order to improve


I wish I had a cool signature

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bas2456

Had my first fighting ejection tonight. Here's what happened:

Boys Freshman B, first game of the season for both teams.

Early second quarter, A11 and B31 are on the floor going after a loose ball. I blew the play dead for a held ball, and those two continue to try and wrestle the ball away from each other. We both saw A11 give a two handed shove to the chest of B31. B31 retaliated with a closed fist punch at A11. Neither of us saw any other players get involved, nor did we see anyone come off the bench. B's coach did come off the bench, but he didn't get involved in breaking up the boys.

My partner and I got together to talk and we decided we had a technical foul on A11 for intentional contact during a dead ball, and a flagrant foul on B31 for fighting. We explained the situation to the coaches and they understood what happened.

As for the resumption of play, we treated the situation as a false double foul. We shot two free throws for B on the technical by A11, followed by two free throws for Team A on the flagrant by B31. Team A got the ball at the division line following the free throws.

Funny thing was, nothing at all precipitated this. The game was physical, but not chippy. Not sure what made things escalate so quickly.

So how did we do? I'm particularly curious about the resumption of play part. What do you think?

From my reading of your play it looks like A11 and B31 are on the floor scrambling for loose ball. they are still on the floor and each gets a piece of the ball. you blow whistle. Players still wrestle for ball on ground. Players stand up. A11 shoves B31 and punch. Is that what happened?

When you see the tie up, get in there and start communicating right away. "Easy, enough," whatever and do it forcefully. Then stay with them as they get up and keep them apart. "you're all right, calm down etc" . Any time two players are in a tie up, either on the ground or standing, there is potential for bad things to happen. Even in a game with no prior issues. Dead ball officiating is very important.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by BigCat

From my reading of your play it looks like A11 and B31 are on the floor scrambling for loose ball. they are still on the floor and each gets a piece of the ball. you blow whistle. Players still wrestle for ball on ground. Players stand up. A11 shoves B31 and punch. Is that what happened?

When you see the tie up, get in there and start communicating right away. "Easy, enough," whatever and do it forcefully. Then stay with them as they get up and keep them apart. "you're all right, calm down etc" . Any time two players are in a tie up, either on the ground or standing, there is potential for bad things to happen. Even in a game with no prior issues. Dead ball officiating is very important.

I agree with the advice you give here, and normally I do that. I was the L as this happened in the front court at about the free throw line. I was beginning to close down as the incident happened.

As I said, nothing precipitated the fight. It caught us by surprise. It escalated quickly.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Geof

I'm not a fan of the way this rule is written either. If A1 pushes B1, A1's fate rests in how B1 reacts....Not a huge fan of that.

The way the rule is written, A2 verbally insulting B2 which results in B2 punching A2 in the face means they both get tossed. Just doesn't feel like the punishment fits the crime.

That's the chance you take when you commit an unsporting act.

A1's has no business pushing B1, and A2 has no business verbally assaulting B2.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why not? Keep your hands to yourself and your mouth shut.

Originally Posted by Geof

Ideally, yes. But people aren't robots.

Welp, there are penalties for folks who don't have the discipline of a robot.

Or to put it this way, B1 shouldn't punch A1 just because he got pushed, but B1 is not a robot.

I do not want to work games with officials who make excuses for unsportsmanlike behavior.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Welp, there are penalties for folks who don't have the discipline of a robot.

Or to put it this way, B1 shouldn't punch A1 just because he got pushed, but B1 is not a robot.

I do not want to work games with officials who make excuses for unsportsmanlike behavior.

And I don't want to work with officials who can't discuss topics without being derisive.

No one is making excuses. We are discussing the the merits of the punishment.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by bas2456

B's coach did come off the bench, but he didn't get involved in breaking up the boys.

First of all, fighting is one of the worst possible outcome in any game. The experience will make you better if you learn from it.

My question, so what was Coach B doing if not helping?

[mutantducky]

I don't have any issue ejecting both players.
I'm just wondering about the verbal one.

Say you have this. Player A1 blocks B1, then says something along the lines of get that out, or weak. whatever. Something that rises to the level where you give the player a T. Nothing too bad like racial or loud swearing, but sending a message that sort of thing is inappropriate. B1 gets angry because of the taunt and hits A1. So you are going to eject both players here? That doesn't seem right to me at all. The technical was a fitting punishment. A1 couldn't have known that it would lead to a punch. There would be situations where a taunt could reasonably be seen as "fighting words" and maybe ejecting both is the right thing to do but in my situation this is just a regular T and nothing too serious that I'm sure many of us have called.

Or this one which happened to me in a game. Two players on the ground after a loose ball. One is on top, doing that slowly getting off the other. Being a jerk about it. The player on the ground pushes him off. Not in an aggressive way, just a regular push. Completely justified in my opinion, and my partner's who calls a T on the player who was being the instigator by taking his time getting off the other. His coach has no problem with the T and chastises the player. I guess we could have given a double T here. But say the instigator player with the T then hits the player who was on the bottom. Are we really going to eject both players because it could be argued the push started the fight? No one thought the player who pushed the other off should get a T. It would seem absurd if that could be considered a start of a fight thus both should be ejected.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

I don't have any issue ejecting both players.
I'm just wondering about the verbal one.

Say you have this. Player A1 blocks B1, then says something along the lines of get that out, or weak. whatever. Something that rises to the level where you give the player a T. B1 gets angry because of the taunt and hits A1. So you are going to eject both players here? That doesn't seem right to me at all. The technical was a fitting punishment. A1 couldn't have known that it would lead to a punch.

Or this one which happened to me in a game. Two players on the ground after a loose ball. One is on top, doing that slowly getting off the other. Being a jerk about it. The player on the ground pushes him off. Not in an aggressive way, just a regular push. Completely justified in my opinion, and my partner's who calls a T on the player who was being the instigator by taking his time getting off the other. His coach has no problem with the T and chastises the player. I guess we could have given a double T here. But say the instigator player with the T then hits the player who was on the bottom. Are we really going to eject both players? No one thought the player who pushed the other off should get a T. It would seem absurd if that could be considered a start of a fight thus both should be ejected.

In the first no, in the second yes.