Scrimmage not so fun

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The coaches are totally in charge of their practice. They decide what we do and what we do not do. We work with them to run the practice and call what we see.

Officials are in charge at a scrimmage. If coaches want to change some rules, we can often work with them (don't shoot one and ones).

But it two kids get involved with fight, and the coach convinces me not to disqualify them, and I comply with the coach, and the same two kids get in another fight (worst case scenario), with one of the kids getting seriously hurt, then my lawyer is going to make a lot of money defending me in a lawsuit.

There is absolutely no way that I'm giving up all of my authority as an official in any type of assignment, like allowing a coach to convince me to allow a disqualified player from continuing to play. It's his practice, but it's my scrimmage.

Rotating officials in, and out, of a scrimmage has nothing to do with this debate. They are all basketball officials.

Here's the reason for this debate:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here, scrimmages are always intra-squad. I've never seen one where it involves two different teams.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In thirty five years, I've never worked an intrasquad scrimmage, all have been intersquad.

We live in two different worlds. Two experienced officials who have been around the block a few times, with two completely different experiences. The famous, or infamous, "When in Rome ..." situation.

But based on my experience as a basketball player, and as a middle school basketball coach, I still maintain that the same problems can occur in an intrasquad scrimmage, as an intersquad scrimmage.

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

Opponents can, and will fight. Usually it involves some type of disrespect.

As the contest official, in my scrimmage, they're on the bench, no matter how much the coach pleads his case.

If he won't allow me to be in charge, then I'm out the door.

After all, that's why I was asked (volunteered, or assigned) to be there, to be in charge of the contest. Otherwise why ask for officials? Assistant coaches can blow whistles just like officials can.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Officials are in charge at a scrimmage. If coaches want to change some rules, we can often work with them (don't shoot one and ones).

They are not changing rules, it is their event. They can decide to have officials or not have officials. They can do whatever they wish at their event. I cannot speak for what happens here, but they can only play so many games during the year. For example the regular season does not start for the boys until next week. Anything this week is not a game or sanctioned in any way. I guess the IHSA could tell them how they run such an event, but it does not count so they do not care as along as they do not play another team. We are asked to participate and they decide to pay us and whomever we choose to show up for. Some assignors assign the officials, others have some official or coach asking guys to work the scrimmage. There is nothing to debate with them if they choose to run a single 10 minute quarter or just play on the half court.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But it two kids get involved with fight, and the coach convinces me not to disqualify them, and I comply with the coach, and the same two kids get in another fight (worst case scenario), with one the kids getting seriously hurt, then my lawyer is going to make a lot of money defending me in a lawsuit.

There is absolutely no way that I'm giving up my authority as an official in any type of assignment, like allowing a coach to convince me to allow a disqualified player from continuing to play. It's his practice, but it's my scrimmage.

There is nothing to disqualify, it is a practice. If a fight happens during a practice, it is up to the school and the coach to decide what conduct rules are violated. The IHSA does not give us any authority during these events. It is just like a summer game, if there is a fight the IHSA does not set the standards for the rules over the summer.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rotating officials in, and out, of a scrimmage has nothing to do with this debate. They are all basketball officials.

OK and all events are not treated the same when it is outside of the prescribed rules of the event.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's the reason for this debate:

We live in two different worlds. Two experienced officials who have been around the block a few times, with two completely different experiences. The famous, or infamous, "When in Rome ..." situation.

But based on my experience as a basketball player, and as a middle school basketball coach, I still maintain that the same problems can occur in an intrasquad scrimmage, as an intersquad scrimmage.

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

Honestly, I am really not debating anything with you. I was just saying I am glad we do not have intersquad scrimmages and do not deal with the issues I read or have read over the years on this site that take place during scrimmages. And it appears their is a lot of questioning on this site with things that happen as people have to come here to find out what they should do in a situation that does not count. All this talk about liability and control is flat out silly to me. If a coach asks me or anyone to show up to a practice (which happens a lot during college levels), no one is treating them like a real game on any level. I do not know what your coaching has to do with this conversation. It is clear what you might do and others might do, might not apply to every place. I am sure even some of the things you claim you find so important are not as important in other areas.

I also did not say that there cannot ever be problems in a in-team scrimmage. But I have yet in all my years in both football and basketball ever heard of the problems or issues I read on this site. Never had to throw anyone out or have a fight. Even when we do our job and call every foul and every penalty that occurs, the coach is right there to correct the situation. I have more issues in 7 on 7 or summer leagues where they are competing with another team and their is some "skin" in the game for the participants. There is no "skin" in the game during a scrimmage (here) because everyone knows what the other team is running on offense or defensive sets and coaches certainly do not want to get anyone hurt for when it starts for year. You guys just do it differently and I am glad I do not have to deal with that so I have to decide if someone is getting a flagrant foul or not.

The girls started on Monday and the boys start this coming Monday. Most games are tournaments and multiple games in a week so they are worried about competing against other teams, not trying to kill each other when most teams will play 4 or 5 games next week.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

What if it is the girl's team?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Opponents can, and will fight. Usually it involves some type of disrespect.

Yes, and why I am glad we do not have to worry about this and ask, "What can we do.....????"

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As the contest official, in my scrimmage, they're on the bench, no matter how much the coach pleads his case.

Again, no such debate to have. The coach is running the event. We tell them what we would do normally and they decide what they would do. What are the losing, 4 extra minutes of running clock?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If he won't allow me to be in charge, then I'm out the door.

Fine, but if it was real you would have that discussion now would you?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After all, that's why I was asked (volunteered, or assigned) to be there, to be in charge of the contest. Otherwise why ask for officials? Assistant coaches can blow whistles just like officials can.

We are volunteering. We can always reject a scrimmage by pretty much anyone. And if we are not paid, I know officials that refuse. Most of the time we are working at a place that is close to home or it is not worth our while.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The coach is running the event.

If I'm officiating a scrimmage, and a player tells me to, "Go f... myself.", and I charge him with a flagrant foul, and sit him on the bench, and the coach tells me that the kid needs to play to get ready for the season ... If the coach doesn't back me, and the kid plays, I've lost all respect that I may have gained as an official.

I can't punch the player in the face. I can't swear back at him. The only tool in my belt is to sit him on the bench, and if the coach wants to take that tool away, then I'm hitting the pavement.

Fights. Swearing. In my opinion, these can happen in both intrasquad, and intersquad, scrimmages. Either way, I'm handling it the same way, by the book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If I'm officiating a scrimmage, and a player tells me to, "Go f... myself.", and I charge him with a flagrant foul, and sit him on the bench, and the coach tells me that the kid needs to play to get ready for the season ... If the coach doesn't back me, and the kid plays, I've lost all respect that I may have gained as an official.

I can't punch the player in the face. I can't swear back at him. The only tool in my belt is to sit him on the bench, and if the coach wants to take that tool away, then I'm hitting the pavement.

If you are having those kinds of issues during a scrimmage, there are some issues at that school or that scrimmage.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Fights. Swearing. In my opinion, these can happen in both intrasquad, and intersquad, scrimmages. Either way, I'm handling it the same way, by the book.

They could but as I said before, they don't. Very uneventful in every case. If there was that kind of issue, I would have heard people talking about it. They don't because there is nothing to talk about.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are having those kinds of issues during a scrimmage, there are some issues at that school or that scrimmage.

I'm not.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Back to reality. I don't believe that I charged a technical foul in a scrimmage in thirty-five years. But there can always be a first time.

But the original poster had some issues.

Originally Posted by deecee

BV scrimmage today that ended in disaster. One team started off chippy with a T within the first 2 minutes. The player that got the T then stormed off and I didn't see him squirt water on the court on purpose, neither did my partner, otherwise he would have been done.

Then another player on the same team had received a warning from my partner and continued to say something. My partner with his back turned I see the kid mouth something to him so I ring him up. I had also told him I had enough. Both times coach was more interested in us talking to the players and him rather than T and I told him we warned the kid(s) first.

Then after the second T the coach takes him out and the kid is acting up and I tell the coach he's done for the day (rather than go through the whole second T since it was an informal scrimmage). Coach said I couldn't do that it was a scrimmage and I told him that wasn't the case.

Then another player on the court looks at me and says, "I thought we weren't letting in Syrian refugees into this country."

What do you think happened after?

[mutantducky]

Then another player on the court looks at me and says, "I thought we weren't letting in Syrian refugees into this country."


For saying that, yes absolutely he should be suspended. Kids say and do stupid things and you(the schools) want to make sure they know it's wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not.



But the original poster had some issues.

When you have a situation that involves a squad only scrimmage, call me and let me know when that happens. Never seen it happen. But I read these threads every year and someone is complaining or commenting on a situation that took plays when teams play each other as to be expected in any competition.

Peace