NFHS Free Throw Question

Originally Posted by BigCat

Think Arem

I have. Check the POE, it is not a violation for a teammate of the free throw shooter to cross the free throw line before restrictions have ended on the free throw shooter. The OP does not specify who is shooting the free throws, which makes the question unanswerable due to lack of information.

Now if you are saying use common sense to know B1 is an opponent of the free throw shooter then that's a whole different thing entirely.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have. Check the POE, it is not a violation for a teammate of the free throw shooter to cross the free throw line before restrictions have ended on the free throw shooter. The OP does not specify who is shooting the free throws, which makes the question unanswerable due to lack of information.

Now if you are saying use common sense to know B1 is an opponent of the free throw shooter then that's a whole different thing entirely.

From the national interps (emphasis added):

Comment: Rule 9-1 does not address the issue of players, other than the free thrower during the free throw, entering the semi-circle. The national interpretation on this issue is during the free throw, anyone entering the semi-circle has created a violation. If it is a team member who violates, the ball should be blown dead immediately. If an opponent violates, it is a delayed lane violation and the free thrower should be awarded a substitute throw if the free throw is missed.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have. Check the POE, it is not a violation for a teammate of the free throw shooter to cross the free throw line before restrictions have ended on the free throw shooter. The OP does not specify who is shooting the free throws, which makes the question unanswerable due to lack of information.

Now if you are saying use common sense to know B1 is an opponent of the free throw shooter then that's a whole different thing entirely.

take a look at the 2015/16 rules interps on the nfhs cite. They clarified the pre season guide--poe. "…Anyone entering the semi circle has created a violation. If it is a team member who violates the ball should be blown dead immediately."

Here are the two paragraphs from the interp in question with emphasis added:

"Clarification Preseason Guide Article “Enforce Illegal Contact on Free Thrower and Violations During Free Throw”, page 6, second paragraph: The free thrower must remain within the free throw semi-circle until the ball contacts the basket ring or the shot is made or missed. The same rule applies to all other players who do not occupy free throw lane line marked spaces. Players who occupy free throw lane line marked spaces during free throws may enter the free-throw lane upon the free thrower releasing the ball; however, should a defensive player cross the free-throw line too soon, it is a violation. A delayed violation signal is to be displayed. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. If the free throw is unsuccessful, the violation is enforced and a substitute free throw is awarded. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. Whether the free throw is or is not successful, the penalty for the personal foul is awarded. If the free thrower’s team is in a bonus situation, the free thrower would be awarded a one-and-one or two free throws. If the free thrower’s team is not in a bonus situation, his or her team would be awarded a throw-in along the end line.

Comment: Rule 9-1 does not address the issue of players, other than the free thrower during the free throw, entering the semi-circle. The national interpretation on this issue is during the free throw, anyone entering the semi-circle has created a violation. If it is a team member who violates, the ball should be blown dead immediately. If an opponent violates, it is a delayed lane violation and the free thrower should be awarded a substitute throw if the free throw is missed."

The first paragraph only mentions a defender, which seems to suggest that it's only a violation for a defender. The second paragraph does seem to contradict that. However the POE also seems to make a distinction between "crossing the free throw line" and "entering the semi-circle". Why this difference? The first time I read it my understanding was "crossing the free-throw line" applies to defenders in marked lanes spaces whereas "entering the semi-circle" applies to players outside the three point line. I don't think they refer to the same thing because they are worded differently. If they do refer to the same thing just from different angles then the wording is stupid and obtuse.

My questions to the NFHS: if you intend for any player (offense or defense) entering the semi-circle area then why write it two different ways? And why only mention a defender in the section about "crossing the free throw line"?

Using my common sense I can't imagine why it should be a violation for an offensive player in a marked lane space to "enter the semi-circle area" before the ball hits the rim. It makes sense why a defensive player can't do it (to avoid contact with FT shooter), and both types of players outside the 3 point line can't enter anyway until the restrictions also end on the FT shooter.

Yet another thing the NFHS could be crystal clear on but words things stupidly so refs like me misunderstand.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Here are the two paragraphs from the interp in question with emphasis added:

"Clarification Preseason Guide Article “Enforce Illegal Contact on Free Thrower and Violations During Free Throw”, page 6, second paragraph: The free thrower must remain within the free throw semi-circle until the ball contacts the basket ring or the shot is made or missed. The same rule applies to all other players who do not occupy free throw lane line marked spaces. Players who occupy free throw lane line marked spaces during free throws may enter the free-throw lane upon the free thrower releasing the ball; however, should a defensive player cross the free-throw line too soon, it is a violation. A delayed violation signal is to be displayed. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. If the free throw is unsuccessful, the violation is enforced and a substitute free throw is awarded. If a defender contacts the free thrower, a personal foul is the correct ruling. Whether the free throw is or is not successful, the penalty for the personal foul is awarded. If the free thrower’s team is in a bonus situation, the free thrower would be awarded a one-and-one or two free throws. If the free thrower’s team is not in a bonus situation, his or her team would be awarded a throw-in along the end line.

Comment: Rule 9-1 does not address the issue of players, other than the free thrower during the free throw, entering the semi-circle. The national interpretation on this issue is during the free throw, anyone entering the semi-circle has created a violation. If it is a team member who violates, the ball should be blown dead immediately. If an opponent violates, it is a delayed lane violation and the free thrower should be awarded a substitute throw if the free throw is missed."

The first paragraph only mentions a defender, which seems to suggest that it's only a violation for a defender. The second paragraph does seem to contradict that. However the POE also seems to make a distinction between "crossing the free throw line" and "entering the semi-circle". Why this difference? The first time I read it my understanding was "crossing the free-throw line" applies to defenders in marked lanes spaces whereas "entering the semi-circle" applies to players outside the three point line. I don't think they refer to the same thing because they are worded differently. If they do refer to the same thing just from different angles then the wording is stupid and obtuse.

My questions to the NFHS: if you intend for any player (offense or defense) entering the semi-circle area then why write it two different ways? And why only mention a defender in the section about "crossing the free throw line"?

Using my common sense I can't imagine why it should be a violation for an offensive player in a marked lane space to "enter the semi-circle area" before the ball hits the rim. It makes sense why a defensive player can't do it (to avoid contact with FT shooter), and both types of players outside the 3 point line can't enter anyway until the restrictions also end on the FT shooter.

Yet another thing the NFHS could be crystal clear on but words things stupidly so refs like me misunderstand.

In the first paragraph they first tell you they are clarifying the preseason guide. then they tell you what it said….defender etc. The comment is the clarification. anyone in the semi circle is a violation. Da Official's test could have been written before the clarification or someone may have not realized it came out.

Originally Posted by Da Official

Thanks experts....as you have agreed with me.

To the question, I answered TRUE.

"It is a violation if B1 leaves a marked lane space [when the ball leaves the free thrower's hand(s)] and breaks the plane of the free-throw line before restrictions end for the free thrower." (True/False).

The test said I was wrong the answer is FALSE and cited 9-1-3d.

Good luck figuring that out...

This could only be me but from my experience of taking officiating tests there are typically 1 or 2 questions that are designed to trip up the official from scoring a 100%. This one was mine. I've also never had the privilege of seeing the governing authority come back and say the question was bad.

The only reason I'm really discussing this is in our state they use chapter test scores to determine what chapters to give playoff games to.....you know because the best chapters are obviously the best test takers but that's a whole other discussion.

Wow this question is buggered up. I think I get it though. The red part is false in relation to the orange part, while the blue part is true in relation to the orange part, which makes the whole thing false because all of its parts are not true. At least that's what they would say.

They are incorrect because of the modifier "when the ball leaves the free thrower's hands". Here's the logic breakdown:

(((A + B) • C) ≡ (D ⊃ V))

V = Violation
A = "B1 leaves the marked lane space"
B = when the ball leaves the free thrower's hand(s)"
C = "breaks the plane of the free throw line"
D = "before restrictions end for the free thrower"

Very tricky. Hopefully the formula I came up with is correct, maybe someone can correct it. It's been awhile since my college logic class. I'm gonna fire up LogiCola and give this a run through. Either way I'd tell your state that they have a shitty question.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by AremRed

(((A + B) • C) ≡ (D ⊃ V))

Crud. I was gonna say the same thing, but he beat me to it.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Wow this question is buggered up. I think I get it though. The red part is false in relation to the orange part, while the blue part is true in relation to the orange part, which makes the whole thing false because all of its parts are not true. At least that's what they would say.

They are incorrect because of the modifier "when the ball leaves the free thrower's hands". Here's the logic breakdown:

(((A + B) • C) ≡ (D ⊃ V))

V = Violation
A = "B1 leaves the marked lane space"
B = when the ball leaves the free thrower's hand(s)"
C = "breaks the plane of the free throw line"
D = "before restrictions end for the free thrower"

Very tricky. Hopefully the formula I came up with is correct, maybe someone can correct it. It's been awhile since my college logic class. I'm gonna fire up LogiCola and give this a run through. Either way I'd tell your state that they have a shitty question.

+1 Nice!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

however, should a defensive player cross the free-throw line too soon, it is a violation.[/COLOR]

That statement is true; it's just not complete.

The statement in the following section ("anyone entering ...") is the complete statement.

[Da Official]

Thanks experts....as you have agreed with me.

To the question, I answered TRUE.

"It is a violation if B1 leaves a marked lane space when the ball leaves the free thrower's hand(s) and breaks the plane of the free-throw line before restrictions end for the free thrower." (True/False).

The test said I was wrong the answer is FALSE and cited 9-1-3d.

Good luck figuring that out...

This could only be me but from my experience of taking officiating tests there are typically 1 or 2 questions that are designed to trip up the official from scoring a 100%. This one was mine. I've also never had the privilege of seeing the governing authority come back and say the question was bad.

The only reason I'm really discussing this is in our state they use chapter test scores to determine what chapters to give playoff games to.....you know because the best chapters are obviously the best test takers but that's a whole other discussion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Da Official

The only reason I'm really discussing this is in our state they use chapter test scores to determine what chapters to give playoff games to.....you know because the best chapters are obviously the best test takers but that's a whole other discussion.

If that's the case then your chapter leadership should do whatever it can to help people boost their test scores.
If that what the office is going to use to allocate playoff assignments, I would take advantage of the situation and grab the lion's share of those slots for my group.