2015-16 The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...

[JRutledge]

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:

Article 1:
A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the front court, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:

When a player of a team is in control of the ball.

Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:



Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

Peace

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

A1 is in backcourt passes ball, deflects off official standing in FC then bounces back to the BC. A2 retrieves ball in BC.

Violation.

Before any BC violation is possible, player/team control must be established inbounds, not in the FC as the rule book states. After that occurs, then BC violations are possible.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

[Geof]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing, as you state. But determining the status of the ball lends itself to determining whether a violation has been made.

The case OKREF states goes along perfectly with the rules. There is team control. The ball being touched in the front court gives the ball front court status while still in team control. The ball goes into the backcourt after having established frontcourt status and is first touched by a member of the same team. Backcourt violation is the call.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

You were originally talking about a throw in and how simply touching the ball in the FC after the throw in does not establish team control. As you said, the ball's status doesnt necessarily mean a violation. The ball is in the FC when it is tipped on the throw in but there is no team control yet. At some point there has to be team control in the FC for there to be a violation. The case play okref cited doesnt deal with a throw in/tip etc. didnt really apply to what you were trying to say.

Having said that, the case play he cited is consistent with the written rule. A1 has the ball in the BC (player and team control). He passes the ball toward A2 in FC. ball is in air---team control still exists. A2 deflects it back. When the ball hits A2 there is still team control and the ball is now in FC. It goes back to A1 and he first to touch it. Violation. 9-1-1. The BC rule only requires team control to have been in FC at some time. Player control IN the FC isnt required. There has to be player control somewhere inbounds before we have team control but it, team control, can start in the BC.

[BillyMac]

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

The case book is the interpretation of the rules book. I go to the case book when it explicitly says if X happens Y is the result.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

Yes it does. Team control continues until the opponent secures control. Control in the BC, followed by a pass to the FC that touches a member of Team A, would establish team control in the FC. The casebook play goes along just fine with the written rule.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Yes it does. Team control continues until the opponent secures control. Control in the BC, followed by a pass to the FC that touches a member of Team A, would establish team control in the FC. The casebook play goes along just fine with the written rule.

There is TC for foul purposes and there is TC for other purposes like a BC violation.

Again, to have a BC violation you have to have TC while in the FC first. You cannot have TC in the FC until you possess the ball as a team.

And if the casebook and the rule goes along just fine, why are people confused with how the rule is written? Because this was never the case before the rule about TC came into play for fouls. And the NF also clearly said that the only reason they change the rule in the first place was for foul purposes, not to change the rule on the BC violation.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is TC for foul purposes and there is TC for other purposes like a BC violation.

Again, to have a BC violation you have to have TC while in the FC first. You cannot have TC in the FC until you possess the ball as a team.

And if the casebook and the rule goes along just fine, why are people confused with how the rule is written? Because this was never the case before the rule about TC came into play for fouls. And the NF also clearly said that the only reason they change the rule in the first place was for foul purposes, not to change the rule on the BC violation.

Peace

The caseplay that OKREF cited has been in the rule book since before the team control mess. And if it wasn't accurate, the NFHS would have changed it. Player control in the FC is not necessarily a requirement for a backcourt violation. As long as PC had been established inbounds at some point, BC violation rules are in effect.

Yes, you must have TC. You do not necessarily need player control. A pass from the BC to FC that touches a member of Team A would establish TC in the FC by rule, assuming initial player control was established in the BC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The caseplay that OKREF cited has been in the rule book since before the team control mess. And if it wasn't accurate, the NFHS would have changed it. Player control in the FC is not necessarily a requirement for a backcourt violation. As long as PC had been established inbounds at some point, BC violation rules are in effect.

Yes, you must have TC. You do not necessarily need player control. A pass from the BC to FC that touches a member of Team A would establish TC in the FC by rule, assuming initial player control was established in the BC.

I agree. And I also agree that it's confusing.

When I first started, RefMag or someone had the "three criteria" for a BC violation. The first was "TC in the FC." While that's technically correct (or was at the time, before there was TC on a throw-in), it was too confusin -- too many though it meant, literally, that someone on the team had control of the ball in the FC.

So, I immediately translated it (to myself) as "four criteria" -- 1) TC, 2) Ball reaches FC, 3) Last to touch before ball goes to BC, 4) first to touch after ball goes to BC. (and, note that the last two do not require that the first touch is in the FC and the second is in the BC).

Because of the rule change, the first criteria is now "PC inbounds"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The caseplay that OKREF cited has been in the rule book since before the team control mess. And if it wasn't accurate, the NFHS would have changed it. Player control in the FC is not necessarily a requirement for a backcourt violation. As long as PC had been established inbounds at some point, BC violation rules are in effect.

Yes, you must have TC. You do not necessarily need player control. A pass from the BC to FC that touches a member of Team A would establish TC in the FC by rule, assuming initial player control was established in the BC.

You must first have PC to have TC. Actually you have PC on a throw-in which is why you can request a time-out during a throw-in and you. Then after you have PC then you have TC. But for this rule, it says you must have established control on the FC, which does not start until a player has gained control of the ball, which requires a player to have control of the ball (Which again is stated in 4-12-2a says: "When a player of the team is in control). Tipping the ball does not start TC on the court.

You can keep telling me what the casebook says, but for some strange reason, there is not even and example of this play in the Simplified and Illustrated Rules book which shows several examples of why we do not call a BC violation until control is established onto the court.

Again, Rule 9-1-1 says:

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt........

And most of all in Rule 9-1-3 says:

During a jump ball, throw-in or while on defense, a player may legally jump from his/her backcourt to the frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with the one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference the first foot downs in the frontcourt or backcourt.

You do not have TC in the front court during a throw-in until possession.

The original question was a person having a misunderstanding with this rule. You IMO are trying to argue the point that causes the confusion.

Honestly I do not care what a casebook play says when they clearly did not use their Simplified and Illustrated Rules book to back up that interpretation. And if you have been paying attention, a lot of people here have had issues with that interpretation for the very same reason I have as well.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

Rut, what are you missing? You said this. The case play refutes what you are saying. It can be possible to have TC in FC without a player actually possessing the basketball, but not on a throw in, but in the case play it is possible.

I understand that the original question was about a throw in, but your blanket statement is only half right. You need to re-read my original post. I said that the case play didn't apply to a throw in.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Rut, what are you missing? You said this. The case play refutes what you are saying. It can be possible to have TC in FC without a player actually possessing the basketball, but not on a throw in, but in the case play it is possible.

I understand that the original question was about a throw in, but your blanket statement is only half right.

I was not making a blanket statement about anything. We were only talking about a throw-in, specific to a question that was asked by Geof. We were not talking about all situations for a BC violation. It seems to me you pulled out something and tried to make a point while not reading the entire conversation. I was answering a question about a throw-in. But even what I said still applies to all situations. Because if you did not first establish player control, you will not have team control. But that was not the point of the comments you quoted.

It is like I made a comment about requirements to be a US Senator but you are talking about what it takes to be President. Well, some of the basic requirements are the exact same, but there are some differences. I was not talking (and it is obvious if you read all the comments) about a player that has established TC in-bounds (FC or BC status) and the ball being tipped around and causing a violation. We were only talking about a throw-in (very specific) and why it would not be a violation if Team A touches or taps a ball in the FC and goes and touches it in the BC. There were like 4 other people that made the very same point but used different words.

Peace