2015-16 The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...

[Geof]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Geof

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....

The requirement for "player control inbounds" has not been met in either case.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The requirement for "player control inbounds" has not been met in either case.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The throw-in ending does not mean you have possession in the FC which is required for a violation for a BC to take place. Touching or tipping the ball does not establish possession.

The rule for backcourt does not dictate player control inbounds. It says "A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

Per 4-12-2, a team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

So we have team control during a throw-in, a pass which is still team control, a tip in the front court by the offense which means the ball has front court location ("A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court."). All the elements of backcourt are present.

On a shot, I can see what you all are saying. There is indeed no team control. No so for a throw-in....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Geof

The rule for backcourt does not dictate player control inbounds. It says "A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

Per 4-12-2, a team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.
d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

So we have team control during a throw-in, a pass which is still team control, a tip in the front court by the offense which means the ball has front court location ("A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court."). All the elements of backcourt are present.

On a shot, I can see what you all are saying. There is indeed no team control. No so for a throw-in....

The NFHS has put out correspondence stating TC on a throw-in is only for the purposes of adjudicated fouls during the throw-in. It is not "true" TC.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The NFHS has put out correspondence stating TC on a throw-in is only for the purposes of adjudicated fouls during the throw-in. It is not "true" TC.

If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Geof

If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!

Yes, that is the case. The rule is an absolute mess, but it is what it is. Until team control has been established on the playing court (a player holding or dribbling a live ball), a BC violation is not possible.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Yes, that is the case. The rule is an absolute mess, but it is what it is. Until team control has been established on the playing court (a player holding or dribbling a live ball), a BC violation is not possible.

Essentially, there are two types of team control without either being clearly defined.

Pseudo Team Control starts when the ball is placed at the disposal of a thrower.

True Team Control starts when a player first obtains player control inbounds.

Both end at the same time....when the ball is released on a try, the other team gains control, etc.

Psuedo Team Control is all that is needed for a team control foul.

True Team Control is needed for any other case.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Geof

If that is the case, then that would be the missing link. Thank you!

4-19-7 is the definition of team control foul. It says in part that it is a team control foul if the throw in team fouls from the start of the throw in until player control is established inbounds. As noted by BNR, it is only there because they dont want the throw in team shooting free throws if it commits a foul prior to the ball being possessed.

This is a completely separate animal from team control inbounds. Once the ball is in control of a player somewhere inbounds team control in the court/inbounds begins. Until that happens backcourt issues/violations do not come in to play.

[JRutledge]

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:

Article 1:
A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the front court, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:

When a player of a team is in control of the ball.

Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

If you read your own reference in 4-12-2a, that says:



Ending a throw-in does not automatically establish TC or even player control.

Peace

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

A1 is in backcourt passes ball, deflects off official standing in FC then bounces back to the BC. A2 retrieves ball in BC.

Violation.

Before any BC violation is possible, player/team control must be established inbounds, not in the FC as the rule book states. After that occurs, then BC violations are possible.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

Having status and committing a violation are not the same thing.

You just have established control in the FC before you can have a BC violation according to the rule. And you must not be one of the exceptions stated in the rule either.

And that casebook play you mentioned does not go along with the written rule. When all else fails, I am going with the rulebook and what it states.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC. A throw-in only has TC out of bounds, which is not apart of the rule to have a BC violation.

Rut, what are you missing? You said this. The case play refutes what you are saying. It can be possible to have TC in FC without a player actually possessing the basketball, but not on a throw in, but in the case play it is possible.

I understand that the original question was about a throw in, but your blanket statement is only half right. You need to re-read my original post. I said that the case play didn't apply to a throw in.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Rut, what are you missing? You said this. The case play refutes what you are saying. It can be possible to have TC in FC without a player actually possessing the basketball, but not on a throw in, but in the case play it is possible.

I understand that the original question was about a throw in, but your blanket statement is only half right.

I was not making a blanket statement about anything. We were only talking about a throw-in, specific to a question that was asked by Geof. We were not talking about all situations for a BC violation. It seems to me you pulled out something and tried to make a point while not reading the entire conversation. I was answering a question about a throw-in. But even what I said still applies to all situations. Because if you did not first establish player control, you will not have team control. But that was not the point of the comments you quoted.

It is like I made a comment about requirements to be a US Senator but you are talking about what it takes to be President. Well, some of the basic requirements are the exact same, but there are some differences. I was not talking (and it is obvious if you read all the comments) about a player that has established TC in-bounds (FC or BC status) and the ball being tipped around and causing a violation. We were only talking about a throw-in (very specific) and why it would not be a violation if Team A touches or taps a ball in the FC and goes and touches it in the BC. There were like 4 other people that made the very same point but used different words.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Geof

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this one. Lets start with the throw-in. If the ball is tipped, the throw-in has ended, so all throw-in exceptions no longer exist. The ball location is the same as when it last touched a player, so if an offensive player in his/her front court tips the ball, the ball location is is the front court. If it is tipped into the backcourt and retrieved by an offensive player, I'm seeing this as a backcourt violation.

Exact same train of thought for a shot....

The throw-in ending does not mean you have possession in the FC which is required for a violation for a BC to take place. Touching or tipping the ball does not establish possession. And on a shot if the ball is tipped and tapped around does not establish control in either part of the court. The rule states possession, has to be established in the FC then be the first to touch in the BC after you were the last to touch in the FC. You are buying into the very myth that this point is trying to get you and others out of thinking is the rule.

Peace