Delay during FTs

[Scrapper1]

At a recent rules discussion with newer officials, we were looking at the rules for free throws and I noticed something that struck me as odd and so I'd like to pose it here and see if it really is odd or if I've misread something.

So 8-1-2 talks about how to handle a delay following a time-out. You use the RPP and put the ball in play. Then it says that if either team continues to delay, a technical foul shall be called. (My rulebook actually says it shall be "ruled", but that sounds suspiciously like an IAABO edit.)

So following a time-out, the free throw shooter, A1, remains huddling with Team A at the sideline and does not come to the free throw semi-circle to attempt his/her throws. In this case, we all agree that we put the ball on the floor inside the semi-circle and begin the 10-second count. Eventually, a violation is called on the shooting team (either 10-seconds or entering the semi-circle, it doesn't matter for the example). So far, so good.

Now, we instruct A1 to come to the FT line for the second try and still s/he refuses. 8-1-2 seems to say that we call a technical foul at this point. No more RPP.

However, 9.1.2 Situation A seems to give a different result. In that example, Team B fails to fill the required lane spaces, and the RPP is used to administer the first FT, which is successful. Team B continues to huddle and the official again applies the RPP. The technical foul is only applied if A1 misses the 2nd FT and Team B refuses to fill the spaces for a third time.

Are these contradictory? Or at least confusing? Or am I reading 8-1-2 incorrectly?

I'd like to get some thoughts and/or clarification. Thanks.

[BryanV21]

One scenario involves the shooting team violating, the other scenario involves the defense violating. If the shooting team is not doing anything wrong you can't take away their free throw opportunities, hence the different ruling.

[JetMetFan]

If the shooter is ready there's no delay. Just let him/her take their FTs. If the shooter's team isn't ready, that holds up the game.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

At a recent rules discussion with newer officials, we were looking at the rules for free throws and I noticed something that struck me as odd and so I'd like to pose it here and see if it really is odd or if I've misread something.

So 8-1-2 talks about how to handle a delay following a time-out. You use the RPP and put the ball in play. Then it says that if either team continues to delay, a technical foul shall be called. (My rulebook actually says it shall be "ruled", but that sounds suspiciously like an IAABO edit.)

So following a time-out, the free throw shooter, A1, remains huddling with Team A at the sideline and does not come to the free throw semi-circle to attempt his/her throws. In this case, we all agree that we put the ball on the floor inside the semi-circle and begin the 10-second count. Eventually, a violation is called on the shooting team (either 10-seconds or entering the semi-circle, it doesn't matter for the example). So far, so good.

Now, we instruct A1 to come to the FT line for the second try and still s/he refuses. 8-1-2 seems to say that we call a technical foul at this point. No more RPP.

However, 9.1.2 Situation A seems to give a different result. In that example, Team B fails to fill the required lane spaces, and the RPP is used to administer the first FT, which is successful. Team B continues to huddle and the official again applies the RPP. The technical foul is only applied if A1 misses the 2nd FT and Team B refuses to fill the spaces for a third time.

Are these contradictory? Or at least confusing? Or am I reading 8-1-2 incorrectly?

I'd like to get some thoughts and/or clarification. Thanks.

In the second scenario, when the shot goes in there is no violation penalized. It is delayed but ignored when ball goes in. In effect it is not a violation. Had the shot been missed you would penalize the violation with another FT. If they still aren't in place it is a T. If you actually penalize a violation and the same team violates again it is a T. Thx

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

One scenario involves the shooting team violating, the other scenario involves the defense violating.

I don't think this really has anything to do with it, Bryan. 8-1-2 specifically says that if EITHER team violates after using the RPP, a technical foul is assessed. So I don't think the different rulings can be related to the fact that different teams violated.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If the shooter is ready there's no delay. Just let him/her take their FTs. If the shooter's team isn't ready, that holds up the game.

I think we would all agree with that. But that doesn't explain why 8-1-2 says to issue a T after using the RPP once, and the case play says to issue the T after using the RPP twice.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BigCat

In the second scenario, when the shot goes in there is no violation penalized. It is delayed but ignored when ball goes in. In effect it is not a violation. Had the shot been missed you would penalize the violation with another FT. If they still aren't in place it is a T. If you actually penalize a violation and the same team violates again it is a T. Thx

This is sort of what I was thinking, as well. But it seems to me that the rule (8-1-2) doesn't actually say that.

The rule seems to say use the RPP once, then call a T. In order for that to correspond with what you're saying (which I think is probably right, just so I'm clear), we have to interpret "using the RPP" to mean "a violation is called following the RPP", and I don't see that those things are the same.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is sort of what I was thinking, as well. But it seems to me that the rule (8-1-2) doesn't actually say that.

The rule seems to say use the RPP once, then call a T. In order for that to correspond with what you're saying (which I think is probably right, just so I'm clear), we have to interpret "using the RPP" to mean "a violation is called following the RPP", and I don't see that those things are the same.

8-1-2 says use the RPP. Then it says --- "Following a VIOLATION by one or both teams, if offending team continues to delay..." call a T. It doesnt say use the RPP once and then call T. When the shot goes in on the second scenario the violation is not called/penalized. Had the shot missed you would call/penalize and award a sub FT. If the team continues to delay now you call a T.

Using the RPP itself doesnt trigger the T. If you use it and have to call a violation on a team then, if same team does it again you call the T. thx

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think this really has anything to do with it, Bryan. 8-1-2 specifically says that if EITHER team violates after using the RPP, a technical foul is assessed. So I don't think the different rulings can be related to the fact that different teams violated.

I misunderstood the question, sorry.

As for 8-1-2, it states "following a violation by one or both teams, if the offending team(s) continues to delay, a technical foul shall be ruled." In 9.1.2 a violation doesn't occur until the 2nd free throw, and the technical foul doesn't happen until the non-shooting team delays during the substitute free throw.

EDIT: Or what BigCat said right before I replied.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BigCat

8-1-2 says use the RPP. Then it says --- "Following a VIOLATION by one or both teams, if offending team continues to delay..." call a T. It doesnt say use the RPP once and then call T. When the shot goes in on the second scenario the violation is not called/penalized. Had the shot missed you would call/penalize and award a sub FT. If the team continues to delay now you call a T.

Using the RPP itself doesnt trigger the T. If you use it and have to call a violation on a team then, if same team does it again you call the T. thx

To take this a little further, and correct me if I'm wrong...

In 9.1.2, the technical foul is called when the ball becomes live (at the disposal of the free throw shooter). So you would clear the lane, have the shooter attempt the substitute free throw, and then administer the technical foul free throws (which anybody can shoot) and throw-in.

Now, unlike in 9.1.2, let's say the free thrower misses the first attempt, leading to a violation by the non-shooting team, followed by a technical foul when the ball becomes live for the substitute free throw. You would then clear the lane, let the free throw shooter attempt the substitute FT for the first attempt and get another attempt if it's made, and then administer the free throws and throw-in for the technical foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

In the second scenario, when the shot goes in there is no violation penalized. It is delayed but ignored when ball goes in. In effect it is not a violation. Had the shot been missed you would penalize the violation with another FT. If they still aren't in place it is a T. If you actually penalize a violation and the same team violates again it is a T. Thx

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is sort of what I was thinking, as well. But it seems to me that the rule (8-1-2) doesn't actually say that.

The rule seems to say use the RPP once, then call a T. In order for that to correspond with what you're saying (which I think is probably right, just so I'm clear), we have to interpret "using the RPP" to mean "a violation is called following the RPP", and I don't see that those things are the same.

This fits my thought process on this as well. Is there another RPP situation where a T would be called without a violation being penalized first?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

This fits my thought process on this as well. Is there another RPP situation where a T would be called without a violation being penalized first?

I dont think so off top of my head.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BigCat

8-1-2 says use the RPP. Then it says --- "Following a VIOLATION by one or both teams, if offending team continues to delay..." call a T.

BINGO! Thank you. That's exactly the part I read too quickly. That makes perfect sense.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

To take this a little further, and correct me if I'm wrong...

In 9.1.2, the technical foul is called when the ball becomes live (at the disposal of the free throw shooter). So you would clear the lane, have the shooter attempt the substitute free throw, and then administer the technical foul free throws (which anybody can shoot) and throw-in.

Now, unlike in 9.1.2, let's say the free thrower misses the first attempt, leading to a violation by the non-shooting team, followed by a technical foul when the ball becomes live for the substitute free throw. You would then clear the lane, let the free throw shooter attempt the substitute FT for the first attempt and get another attempt if it's made, and then administer the free throws and throw-in for the technical foul.

Yes.