This Just Seemed Odd...from rule aficionado/lurker

[More Cowbell]

It's been a few years but I still love this site, and I come with a question.

AAA Little League (10-11 year olds), 5th run in the inning scores as trail runner reaches third base. Everyone on both teams starts to run in towards the dugouts thinking the "5 Run Max" rule was in effect, not realizing in the last two innings you can bat the lineup. Coaches were out of dugouts trying to get players attention and send them back out.

Umpire (one man crew) runs down third base line and does a "circly" motion with his hand which looked like it was a "change sides" motion--sort of like a home run signal. He said he was verbalizing (and motioning) to both sides that we needed to bat the lineup. After the instruction from the ump, the defense threw to third and tagged out the runner who had started toward his dugout.

So...does his communication to the teams constitute "time out?" It was clear that both teams thought one rule was in effect when in fact it wasn't. It was pretty chaotic with players, parents, and coaches yelling, "We are still batting, get back out there" or "We are still on the field, get out there."

Disclosure: I am dad and Assistant on team that got thrown out at third. Not trying to "get" the ump...just have never seen something like this. So there you go. Thanks to all opinions...

[Manny A]

What a mess.

Frankly, I blame the third base coach (who I assume is an adult) for allowing his runner to be at risk. Everyone knows (or should know) the house rule in the league that the five-run rule is no longer in effect. Unless the umpire clearly yelled out, "THAT'S FIVE RUNS; SWITCH IT UP!" or made some other signal that clearly meant the inning was over, it's the base coach's fault the runner was tagged. That's why he is out there.

Umpires communicate to the teams on occasion, and that doesn't mean play is dead. For example, when a batter starts running to first base on Ball Three, the plate umpire may say, "THAT'S BALL THREE!" Or on a tag play where the umpire may not see if the fielder has the ball secured in his glove, the umpire may say, "SHOW ME THE BALL!" Play is still live when that happens.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Everyone on both teams starts to run in towards the dugouts thinking the "5 Run Max" rule was in effect,

It's a 9.01(c) situation, and by next week the kids probably won't really remember it.

If that's really true, then I'm probably just putting things back, especially in a "house league"

If it was only a couple, then I'm probably letting the play stand.

In between, HTBT.

[CT1]

Agree with Bob. Treat it as if "Time" had been called, put runners back & continue.

[jTheUmp]

Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

[More Cowbell]

Note to self: look up referenced rule.

Already storing advice and comments. I guess umps do communicate to some extent on various plays. When I said "everyone" on both teams was heading to the dugout, it was essentially their team plus our only base runner since we were in the dugout batting. I believe 8 of their nine were in the infield running off the field when the confusion took place.

It was our last "pre-season" game and appeared to be the perfect time to say, "Guys, we bat the line up...go back." Which is what happened, except when we went back, our guy got tagged out.

Aside #1: our manager got pretty upset and rather contentious with the ump, who reciprocated and yelled, "This is a kids game, don't yell at me in front of a bunch of kids!" Both went over the line, IMO.

Aside #2: many many props to all of you who take up the profession..it really is an art form, and I enjoy seeing a well-called game

[MD Longhorn]

Umpires do communicate during live balls and it doesn't kill the ball.

But the moment the umpire started directing traffic during the play, imho he killed the play. When he tells the oblivious defense that play is live, and he does so while a runner is off a base, he ON HIS OWN put the offense at risk. No way should there be an out here.

[john5396]

By the letter of the rules, the ump in your game was correct. Only specific calls from the umpire make the ball dead, like "Time", "Foul", "Balk (NFHS)". Other communications like "strike", "ball", "out", Fair (pointing not verbal), and many others do not create a time out.

That said as others have indicated since "everyone" had it wrong, the better course given the level of play, would be for the umpire would probably have been to call "Time" and put the players back where they belong.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by john5396

By the letter of the rules, the ump in your game was correct. Only specific calls from the umpire make the ball dead, like "Time", "Foul", "Balk (NFHS)". Other communications like "strike", "ball", "out", Fair (pointing not verbal), and many others do not create a time out.

That said as others have indicated since "everyone" had it wrong, the better course given the level of play, would be for the umpire would probably have been to call "Time" and put the players back where they belong.

I agree with your result but not your reasoning. The umpire crossed the line when he told the defense what to do. HE put the offense in jeopardy. He must rectify that. If the ball is going to remain live, he cannot influence play by telling the defense not to leave the field.

(And heck, he also put the defense in jeopardy by telling the offense it was still live - had events after him butting in evolved differently, his announcement to each team what they should do during a live ball could have aided the offense instead...)

Once he told EITHER team what to do during a live ball, he has to kill it. At ANY level.

[More Cowbell]

MDL...I was wondering the same thing...if the runner, on the way to the dugout happened to step on home (on purpose or not), would he have kept to his guns and allowed the run? My gut feeling is no..it was the home team that made the put out, with much yelling "tag him, tag him"...and the kid at third was the go ahead run..with no outs.

To me, this is much different than "they forgot how many outs there were" and left the field or the like. There was certain and clear direction, and the ump later said "I told both sides we were batting the line up."

(BTW the next kid up got a single that would have scored the kid at third...and we lost 6-5 on two errors in the bottom half of the inning...not germane to the post, but that's just how the baseball gods work sometimes.)

Again, thanks for the perspective.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

To me, this is much different than "they forgot how many outs there were" and left the field or the like.

To me, it's identical to that. Meaning - in NEITHER case should the umpire be speaking to influence play - and if they do, they need to kill it to do so. (If "they forgot how many outs there were", umpire should not be yelling, "Hey, there are only 2 outs everyone" unless play has stopped on its own.)

[More Cowbell]

MDL,
Agreed...both cases ump should be mum; I meant that the context was different. Kids forgetting how many outs is different than both teams thinking one set of rules were in play. I wouldn't have a problem "stealing" a run because defense forgot the outs; I would not want a run that was scored because of confusion and misunderstanding.

(Does that make sense?) I think this forum should be required reading for all coaches, and parents for that matter. I enjoy the spirited debate you guys get into, and I have learned tons in several sports.

[rbmartin]

Given the scenario you described where both teams thought the inning was over, if I was UIC I would say that I had called timeout just to diffuse the situation.

[More Cowbell]

Didn't think of this angle until today, but would this scenario be "protestable?" (No intention of doing so, just wondering.) My limited understanding is protests must involve misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule.

To recap with point I forgot:
1.) 5th run in inning scores as runner takes 3b
2.) Official Scorekeeper, thinking 5 run max is in effect, yells, "That's five runs" which causes all players to head towards respective dugouts, including kid on third.
3.) Umpire runs up line yelling to players, coaches, and scorekeeper, "We are batting the lineup..it's the 5th inning!" While making a circle motion with hand. Players return to field.
4.) Baserunner is called out after being tagged before his return to 3rd.

If a protest was lodged, what would be the grounds? Is there a "come on now?!" provision? Probably not. Just thought I'd beat this dead horse once more.

[bob jenkins]

Sure -- you can protest anything.

It might also be the last thing you did in leagues around here.