This Just Seemed Odd...from rule aficionado/lurker

[More Cowbell]

It's been a few years but I still love this site, and I come with a question.

AAA Little League (10-11 year olds), 5th run in the inning scores as trail runner reaches third base. Everyone on both teams starts to run in towards the dugouts thinking the "5 Run Max" rule was in effect, not realizing in the last two innings you can bat the lineup. Coaches were out of dugouts trying to get players attention and send them back out.

Umpire (one man crew) runs down third base line and does a "circly" motion with his hand which looked like it was a "change sides" motion--sort of like a home run signal. He said he was verbalizing (and motioning) to both sides that we needed to bat the lineup. After the instruction from the ump, the defense threw to third and tagged out the runner who had started toward his dugout.

So...does his communication to the teams constitute "time out?" It was clear that both teams thought one rule was in effect when in fact it wasn't. It was pretty chaotic with players, parents, and coaches yelling, "We are still batting, get back out there" or "We are still on the field, get out there."

Disclosure: I am dad and Assistant on team that got thrown out at third. Not trying to "get" the ump...just have never seen something like this. So there you go. Thanks to all opinions...

[Manny A]

What a mess.

Frankly, I blame the third base coach (who I assume is an adult) for allowing his runner to be at risk. Everyone knows (or should know) the house rule in the league that the five-run rule is no longer in effect. Unless the umpire clearly yelled out, "THAT'S FIVE RUNS; SWITCH IT UP!" or made some other signal that clearly meant the inning was over, it's the base coach's fault the runner was tagged. That's why he is out there.

Umpires communicate to the teams on occasion, and that doesn't mean play is dead. For example, when a batter starts running to first base on Ball Three, the plate umpire may say, "THAT'S BALL THREE!" Or on a tag play where the umpire may not see if the fielder has the ball secured in his glove, the umpire may say, "SHOW ME THE BALL!" Play is still live when that happens.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Everyone on both teams starts to run in towards the dugouts thinking the "5 Run Max" rule was in effect,

It's a 9.01(c) situation, and by next week the kids probably won't really remember it.

If that's really true, then I'm probably just putting things back, especially in a "house league"

If it was only a couple, then I'm probably letting the play stand.

In between, HTBT.

[CT1]

Agree with Bob. Treat it as if "Time" had been called, put runners back & continue.

[jTheUmp]

Sometimes ya just gotta umpire.

[More Cowbell]

Note to self: look up referenced rule.

Already storing advice and comments. I guess umps do communicate to some extent on various plays. When I said "everyone" on both teams was heading to the dugout, it was essentially their team plus our only base runner since we were in the dugout batting. I believe 8 of their nine were in the infield running off the field when the confusion took place.

It was our last "pre-season" game and appeared to be the perfect time to say, "Guys, we bat the line up...go back." Which is what happened, except when we went back, our guy got tagged out.

Aside #1: our manager got pretty upset and rather contentious with the ump, who reciprocated and yelled, "This is a kids game, don't yell at me in front of a bunch of kids!" Both went over the line, IMO.

Aside #2: many many props to all of you who take up the profession..it really is an art form, and I enjoy seeing a well-called game

[MD Longhorn]

Umpires do communicate during live balls and it doesn't kill the ball.

But the moment the umpire started directing traffic during the play, imho he killed the play. When he tells the oblivious defense that play is live, and he does so while a runner is off a base, he ON HIS OWN put the offense at risk. No way should there be an out here.

[rbmartin]

Given the scenario you described where both teams thought the inning was over, if I was UIC I would say that I had called timeout just to diffuse the situation.

[More Cowbell]

Didn't think of this angle until today, but would this scenario be "protestable?" (No intention of doing so, just wondering.) My limited understanding is protests must involve misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule.

To recap with point I forgot:
1.) 5th run in inning scores as runner takes 3b
2.) Official Scorekeeper, thinking 5 run max is in effect, yells, "That's five runs" which causes all players to head towards respective dugouts, including kid on third.
3.) Umpire runs up line yelling to players, coaches, and scorekeeper, "We are batting the lineup..it's the 5th inning!" While making a circle motion with hand. Players return to field.
4.) Baserunner is called out after being tagged before his return to 3rd.

If a protest was lodged, what would be the grounds? Is there a "come on now?!" provision? Probably not. Just thought I'd beat this dead horse once more.

[bob jenkins]

Sure -- you can protest anything.

It might also be the last thing you did in leagues around here.

[kylejt]

LL minors is the learning division. Learning for coaches, managers, players, umpires, scorekeepers, Division Reps, and parents. Everyone is getting smarter, I like to say (as opposed to most everyone is clueless).

Pick the hill you want to die on, down there. There are times you may be right, but a what cost? You might get the call overturned, but lose a lot of "friends" along the way. Next year, when the president is picking managers, how do you want to be remembered?

When calls don't fall your way, that's a real teachable moment for everyone. And no doubt, there are times to question, and times to protest. Just be very selective.

[CVLLBlue]

[QUOTE=More Cowbell;926817]It's been a few years but I still love this site, and I come with a question.

AAA Little League (10-11 year olds), 5th run in the inning scores as trail runner reaches third base. Everyone on both teams starts to run in towards the dugouts thinking the "5 Run Max" rule was in effect, not realizing in the last two innings you can bat the lineup. Coaches were out of dugouts trying to get players attention and send them back out.

Umpire (one man crew) runs down third base line and does a "circly" motion with his hand which looked like it was a "change sides" motion--sort of like a home run signal. He said he was verbalizing (and motioning) to both sides that we needed to bat the lineup. After the instruction from the ump, the defense threw to third and tagged out the runner who had started toward his dugout.


So...does his communication to the teams constitute "time out?" It was clear that both teams thought one rule was in effect when in fact it wasn't. It was pretty chaotic with players, parents, and coaches yelling, "We are still batting, get back out there" or "We are still on the field, get out there."

The actual 5 run rule for Little League is that the inning ends with 3 outs or 5 runs scored, whichever comes first. Only in the 6th inning can more runs be scored. If a time limit shortens the game, there is no "unlimited run inning" unless it is the 6th inning. There are no local rules that can change this.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CVLLBlue

The actual 5 run rule for Little League is that the inning ends with 3 outs or 5 runs scored, whichever comes first. Only in the 6th inning can more runs be scored.

But it is still limited, by LL rule 5.07. The rule states that an inning ends when 5 runs are scored OR when the team bats the roster. The 5-run limit goes away in the last inning if the BOD exercises the option in the rule, but the roster limit does not.

Originally Posted by CVLLBlue

If a time limit shortens the game, there is no "unlimited run inning" unless it is the 6th inning.

I disagree. The option in rule 5.07 to do away with the 5-run limit says, with my emphasis, "The local league board of directors may suspend the five-run rule in the LAST half-inning for either team." It doesn't say in the 6th inning. So, IMO, if the local BOD decides to exercise this option, it goes into effect whenver the umpire declares a final inning, whether it be due to time limits or other game-shortenening situation.