2013 World Series Thread

The MLB video of this play has a section of audio from the conversation of manager Mike Matheny and PU John Hirschbeck (starting at 1:58). To summarize:

John Hirschbeck: "There's five of us out here, ok. And all five of us say we are 100% sure that that was not a catch. Our job is to get it right."

Mike Matheny: "But how many...![cut off]"

Many of the comments I have read/heard from people (even the various announcers) commenting on this play say "that call never gets overturned". And I would wager Mike Matheny is saying the same thing before the audio in the above clip gets cut off. Disregarding the legitimacy of these peoples opinions regarding baseball umpiring, is there any shred of truth to this belief?

[scrounge]

For a run of the mill game in early June, that probably doesn't get overturned. Game 1 of the WS? Yea, they're going to go to extra lengths to get it right.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The [URL="http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=31172513"]

Many of the comments I have read/heard from people (even the various announcers) commenting on this play say "that call never gets overturned". And I would wager Mike Matheny is saying the same thing before the audio in the above clip gets cut off. Disregarding the legitimacy of these peoples opinions regarding baseball umpiring, is there any shred of truth to this belief?

Never, is a bit of exaggeration here. As far as a "shred of truth", I am sure if you were to hire some DC politician they could talk most people into believing this though. Now, if your quoting the announcers, then their is most likely a good chance that its just a WRONG statement.

I can understand from the umpires view of that play how he may have believed that it was a catch and transfer however, it just didn't happen that way so, they got it right ????

[bob jenkins]

I guess this can lay to rest that old saw about "if the ball goes straight down it was dropped and if it goes out to the side it was on the release."

I'm not sure I like them getting together on this, though. What if "all five of us are 100% sure that the runner beat the tag?"

[Mountaincoach]

When I see issues like this, I think about what the lasting legacy of something like that could be in either direction. If they let the call stand, the name of the umpire who made the call becomes a household name for decades as the "guy who blew such an easy call, yada yada". If the call is discussed and overturned in a meeting of the man's peers (which happened), it becomes the topic of conversation for about the next 24 hours until Game 2 is played, and the umpire goes on to live his life in peace and continue with his career. I say BRAVO to all of the people involved. They got the call correct. The pressure that has historically been applied to baseball umpires to maintain autonomy and not ask for help is just simply too much.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

When I see issues like this, I think about what the lasting legacy of something like that could be in either direction. If they let the call stand, the name of the umpire who made the call becomes a household name for decades as the "guy who blew such an easy call, yada yada". If the call is discussed and overturned in a meeting of the man's peers (which happened), it becomes the topic of conversation for about the next 24 hours until Game 2 is played, and the umpire goes on to live his life in peace and continue with his career. I say BRAVO to all of the people involved. They got the call correct. The pressure that has historically been applied to baseball umpires to maintain autonomy and not ask for help is just simply too much.

Yep, this was a "lead on Sportscenter" kind of call, as in if they don't reverse such an egregious miss, it's the lead on Sportscenter and the start of a new meme. That doesn't mean every close play has to be huddled - indeed, there were other close plays in that game. But that wasn't just a whale of a miss, it was a brontosaurus.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scrounge

But that wasn't just a whale of a miss, it was a brontosaurus.

Whales (Blue):
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 120 tons (109 tonnes)

Brontosaurus:
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 33-38 tons (30-35 tonnes)

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Whales (Blue):
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 120 tons (109 tonnes)

Brontosaurus:
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 33-38 tons (30-35 tonnes)

Clearly I was referring to beluga whales!

well done

[Manny A]

The MLBUM has a section on Getting the Call Right. If memory serves (since I don't have a copy available right now), the recommended "signal" that Joe Torre alluded to would come when another umpire(s) has additional information that the calling umpire may have missed. An example given in the MLBUM is when a calling umpire may be blocked from seeing that the catcher dropped the ball on a tag play at home.

I have no problem accepting that. But in this situation, DeMuth had the whole play in front of him. He was just victimized by shitty judgment. And shitty judgment, IMHO, is not the time when other umpires come to the rescue of their partner.

That's exactly why Jim Joyce's call stood against Armando Galarraga. And Tim Welke's call stood against Jerry Hairston. Those were egregious misses that all three other umpires likely saw, but they didn't "seek to reverse" the call by walking toward them or giving them some other signal. Joyce and Welke knew better, and I'm surprised Demuth didn't stay his ground as well here.

{Edited to add} This will undoubtedly have repercussions down the ranks to us amateur umpires. Now when we have a clear miss on a play that's right in front of us (and we all have them on occasion), coaches will point to this play to argue their cases that we must go for help. An unfortunate precedent has been set, IMO.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Manny A

{Edited to add} This will undoubtedly have repercussions down the ranks to us amateur umpires. Now when we have a clear miss on a play that's right in front of us (and we all have them on occasion), coaches will point to this play to argue their cases that we must go for help. An unfortunate precedent has been set, IMO.

Just this last post season, had a coach who thought I should get a second opinion on (1) a pulled foot at first and (2) a tag play at second.

When I said no on the second one, he said, "That's the second time you've refused to go for help! You need to get over that!"

Really?

Rita

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Just this last post season, had a coach who thought I should get a second opinion on (1) a pulled foot at first and (2) a tag play at second.

When I said no on the second one, he said, "That's the second time you've refused to go for help! You need to get over that!"

Really?

Rita

Unfortunately, that's going to become more and more common. Soon, we'll have to have an odd number of umpires on every game and we'll all vote on every play.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Unfortunately, that's going to become more and more common. Soon, we'll have to have an odd number of umpires on every game and we'll all vote on every play.

One is an odd number.

I'm perfectly fine with that. (For kids' games.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Just this last post season, had a coach who thought I should get a second opinion on (1) a pulled foot at first and (2) a tag play at second.

When I said no on the second one, he said, "That's the second time you've refused to go for help! You need to get over that!"

Really?

Rita

I think we care too much about what a coach thinks. I have no problem refusing "help" when I am doing nothing but watching a play and I know my partner cannot do much to help or does not have the look I have. They will get over it.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Great call by Jim Joyce.

Peace

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think we care too much about what a coach thinks. I have no problem refusing "help" when I am doing nothing but watching a play and I know my partner cannot do much to help or does not have the look I have. They will get over it.

Peace

At that point in that game, there wasn't an umpire on the field who cared what this coach thought. He was THAT kind of coach.

So this guy ended up finally leaving. It's just that I had the "honor" of letting him know it was time.

Rita