Runner fails to touch 2nd base.....Lansing loses in extra innings!!!

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I have to question the wording of the ruling here. Why would they allude that this is a timing play? This, to me, is clearly an example of a forced runner being declared out before he reaches his forced-to base. It shouldn't matter if the out was made by virtue of an actual play, an appeal, or an abandonment call. He was forced to second base, he never achieved second base, and he was declared out. How is this not a force play but instead a timing play?

To properly appeal the force play, the ball must be made live again. I don't many umpires that are going to put a ball back into play after a walk-off situation. Therefore, you have to declare the runner has abandoned the base to get an out here.

-Josh

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

So is this abandonment or an appeal?

Neither... it's a force play at 2nd base. Surely you've seen someone throw out a runner at 2nd before they got there before.

[UES]

Originally Posted by jdmara

To properly appeal the force play, the ball must be made live again. I don't many umpires that are going to put a ball back into play after a walk-off situation. Therefore, you have to declare the runner has abandoned the base to get an out here.

-Josh

Not sure the ball was ever declared "dead" - the RF in the video is pointing over towards 2B where the SS is standing on the base with the ball looking for an umpire to make a call???

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdmara

To properly appeal the force play, the ball must be made live again. I don't many umpires that are going to put a ball back into play after a walk-off situation. Therefore, you have to declare the runner has abandoned the base to get an out here.

-Josh

if the team wants to make an appeal, you do. And, if there's some rule requirement that there be a batter, you ignore that part of it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UES

Not sure the ball was ever declared "dead" - the RF in the video is pointing over towards 2B where the SS is standing on the base with the ball looking for an umpire to make a call???

They were not refering to the OP, but rather a home run case play earlier in the thread.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jdmara

To properly appeal the force play, the ball must be made live again. I don't many umpires that are going to put a ball back into play after a walk-off situation. Therefore, you have to declare the runner has abandoned the base to get an out here.

Sorry, but you're not addressing my concern. This has nothing to do with an appeal.

The MLBUM play that umpjim quoted has R1 failing to go to second base on an apparent walk-off grand slam with two outs. R1 is declared out for abandonment for the third out. The ruling on the play said that since the abandonment declaration happened before R3 touched home, R3's run doesn't count.

Seems to me it shouldn't matter if the abandonment declaration happens before or after R3 touches home. The result of the call is what amounts to a force out, so when R3 touches is immaterial. Or so I thought. The MLBUM ruling makes it sound like this is a timing play.

[bob jenkins]

By interpretation (as I recall it), abandonment is not a force play even if it happens before a runner reaches his forced base. You can still get a force out on appeal, though.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

By interpretation (as I recall it), abandonment is not a force play even if it happens before a runner reaches his forced base. You can still get a force out on appeal, though.

That's a new one on me.

So, a batter swings and misses at a pitch in the dirt for an uncaught third strike with two outs and a runner at third. He stands at home and waves R3 home. R3 scores what would be the apparent game-winning run, and the batter steps outside of the dirt circle around the plate patting R3's back as they head to the dugout. A teammate tells the batter he still needs to run to first base, but he's already ruled out for abandonment by the PU.

I would think the PU would announce the abandonment call, and then turn to the scorer and wave off the run. I wouldn't expect that the defense would still have to appeal at first base.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's a new one on me.

So, a batter swings and misses at a pitch in the dirt for an uncaught third strike with two outs and a runner at third. He stands at home and waves R3 home. R3 scores what would be the apparent game-winning run, and the batter steps outside of the dirt circle around the plate patting R3's back as they head to the dugout. A teammate tells the batter he still needs to run to first base, but he's already ruled out for abandonment by the PU.

I would think the PU would announce the abandonment call, and then turn to the scorer and wave off the run. I wouldn't expect that the defense would still have to appeal at first base.

That's not an abandonment out.

[Tim C]

It is just "Manny being Manny"

T

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not an abandonment out.

It's also not a force!

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

By interpretation (as I recall it), abandonment is not a force play even if it happens before a runner reaches his forced base. You can still get a force out on appeal, though.

This is what the 2011 WUM says:

"The play under 3.14 of the PBUC manual seems to indicate that ALL instances of "abandoning effort" with two outs are time play situations, whether the runner has reached his forced base, or not. This contradicts the rule book by either changing the definition of a force play, or by ignoring Rule 4.09 (a). Our suggestion is that if a runner is called out for abandoning his effort before he reaches the base he is forced to, this should be a force out.

Example Play: R1, R3, two outs score tied. The batter hits a base hit though the infield, seemingly scoring the winning run. Just after R3 crosses home plate, R1 starts running off the field before he reaches second base, believing the game is over. The umpire calls him out for abandoning his effort to run the bases.
Official Ruling: The run scores. This is a time play.
Preferred Ruling: The run does not score. This is a force play. Had he advanced to second base before running off of the field, this would be a time play."

So if you don't recognize/call abandonment and the defense does it's job as in the OP you won't have a problem.

[MD Longhorn]

Personally, I can't ever imagine ruling abandonment on a forced runner unless the defense also gives up their efforts to play the ball and make outs.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by umpjim

So if you don't recognize/call abandonment and the defense does it's job as in the OP you won't have a problem.

That's certainly a viable workaround, and will probably be the way things turn out in most cases.

The problem becomes when the defense thinks the game is over and doesn't realize an appeal is in order, they all head into the dugout, and you recognize that an abandonment call is still possible. Both teams screwed up, and yet we only hold the defense accountable by not making the abandonment call. Or we do make it but we make it after the winning run scores, which renders the out for abandonment moot, as currently interpreted.

There should be consistency. A forced runner who is ruled out before he reaches his forced-to base should be considered a force out under all intents and purposes.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, the interp that an abandonment call is a timing play only makes sense if it's done after the defense has also stopped trying to get the player out. If you wait until the defense is also not trying to get this player out, and then call abandonment - the run scores and there's no change necessary.

But if the defense is still playing the ball (or, as in the OP, throwing to 2nd to get the out), you can't call abandonment and then also rule it a timing play...

The OP is easy - a simple force out at 2nd.