fair/foul - then catch/no-catch

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Your last sentence makes sense from an umpire's perspective, and is probably the explanation as to why the mechanic is taught that way.

But even with the play you describe the runner will be far more concerned if the catch was made or not. It's just that in your example play - there is so much intervening time between the determination of fair/foul and catch/no-catch, it only makes sense to call it in that order.

Imagine you are the runner at 3rd on this play. As soon as you see the fair signal, are you going to dash home? No! Because you have to wait until the catch/no-catch signal is made. I'm not saying fair or foul isn't important. It is! But for marginal catches, the runners are primarily going to be concerned with the catch/no-catch call. You can take off running on a foul ball - and the worst that will happen is that they call you back; so the runners do not have to be concerned with whether a ball is fair or foul.

Yet, I think your explanation makes perfect sense and I think it does explain why the mechanic is why it is. Thanks!

If I'm R3 and there's a ball hit in the air to the outfield, I'm going back to tag.

If it falls, I walk home. If it's caught as a trouble ball, I walk home.

As an umpire: If it falls, I'm signaling safe as soon as it's practical. I'm signaling fair/foul on first touch and it's rare that unless the ball hits the ground first that I could signal either one of those signals simultaneously. Only on a short hop could that be an issue. If it's not a fair/foul issue right on the line, I'm probably coming up with a safe signal right away.

[EsqUmp]

It is important to signal fair/foul because of the potential for the defender to bobble the ball and drop it. It is possible that the defender initially touched the ball fair and then dropped it over foul territory. By sticking your arm out and pointing, the umpire will know whether the ball is fair or foul in case it falls. That is much better than a defender diving for the ball, bobbling it and dropping it only for the umpire to stand there wondering, "Hmm, was that fair or foul?" Your brain may not remember, but if your arm is sticking out, you'll have your answer.

In MLB, if the catch becomes obvious, they do not signal "catch" after the point.

A good case in point is when the Yankees were playing the Red Sox and Jeter initially touched a ball in fair territory, then ran into the stands. Fielden Colbreth pointed fair, then ran over toward the stands. If the ball had fallen, it would have been fair.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Rich

If I'm R3 and there's a ball hit in the air to the outfield, I'm going back to tag.

If it falls, I walk home. If it's caught as a trouble ball, I walk home.

What if it's a looper behind 1st base, in short right field? The right fielder is running in and makes the catch. You're not going tag up on that. Too shallow. You'll get thrown out by a mile.

On a hit like that, tagging up would be a mistake. Because if you go back to the bag and wait to see what happens - if it's not caught, you will probably not be able to score because you have to run 90 feet. The ball may very well get picked up in plenty of time to throw you out.

You're going want to get quite a distance off 3rd so, if it drops, you can get home before the ball can be picked up. If it's caught, you can get back to 3rd safely. You usually don't tag up on shallow hits into the outfield. You get off the bag so that if it drops, you can score.

What you've described would be correct on a ball hit deep down the right field line.

But now we're talking more about how the game is played than how the game is umpired.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

What if it's a looper behind 1st base, in short right field? The right fielder is running in and makes the catch. You're not going tag up on that. Too shallow. You'll get thrown out by a mile.

On a hit like that, tagging up would be a mistake. Because if you go back to the bag and wait to see what happens - if it's not caught, you will probably not be able to score because you have to run 90 feet. The ball may very well get picked up in plenty of time to throw you out.

You're going want to get quite a distance off 3rd so, if it drops, you can get home before the ball can be picked up. If it's caught, you can get back to 3rd safely. You usually don't tag up on shallow hits into the outfield. You get off the bag so that if it drops, you can score.

What you've described would be correct on a ball hit deep down the right field line.

But now we're talking more about how the game is played than how the game is umpired.

Regardless of which mechanic you'd like to see first, if it's a catch I'm going to make sure all elements of a catch are present (including voluntary release) before signaling an out. That's not going to happen quickly on a play like this regardless -- I'll have plenty of time to signal fair first before calling the runner out. If the ball hits the ground, I'm pointing fair quickly and then selling the "no catch" part of the sequence.

So I'm not sure how we're putting anyone at a great disservice here.

[Steven Tyler]

Do some want to signal no catch on a dropped foul fly ball?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Do some want to signal no catch on a dropped foul fly ball?

I do, if it's obviously foul and it's a close catch/no catch. Usually happens when F2 goes to the screen or dives toward a fence.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by CT1

I do, if it's obviously foul and it's a close catch/no catch. Usually happens when F2 goes to the screen or dives toward a fence.

Wouldn't just a foul signal suffice? Nobody going anywhere on a "dropped" foul ball regardless.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Wouldn't just a foul signal suffice? Nobody going anywhere on a "dropped" foul ball regardless.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, this is one of the few instances where a verbal FOUL call is actually helpful.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Wouldn't just a foul signal suffice? Nobody going anywhere on a "dropped" foul ball regardless.

It's just the way I was trained, & I don't really see a problem with the "no catch" signal. Remember, this would be on a ball that's in obviously foul territory -- the kind where you'd give no signal if someone weren't trying to make a play on it.