Failure to retouch after foul ball.

[rbmartin]

FED game today. I'm at "B" position. Runner on 1st only. Batter fouls ball off as R1 takes off. R1 returns toward 1st but assumes his normal leadoff position, clearly not retouching (I witness this). U1 quickly puts ball in play. Batter hits a triple on next pitch, scoring R1.

What. if anything, should I (U2) have done?
Does the defensive team have any means of appeal?

[DG]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

What. if anything, should I (U2) have done?
Does the defensive team have any means of appeal?

Nothing. No.

[Tim C]

We have talked about this many, many times on this site.

Understand the rule and you will understand the process.

OOO

T

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by Tim C

We have talked about this many, many times on this site.

Understand the rule and you will understand the process.

OOO

T

This thread, for example, is a pretty good explanation. At least the first page is.

[rbmartin]

Thanks guys. Sounds like I did the right thing.
The defensive coach requested time out and came out to "appeal". I said something like "You are correct that he did not retouch but it's still nothing". He didn't argue.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by Tim C

We have talked about this many, many times on this site.
Understand the rule and you will understand the process.
OOO
T

I'd be curious to know what topic hasnt been talked about many times on this forum.
Yes, we all should know all the rules and mechanics, and be able to quote the exact rule reference and page. I visit this site, and occasionally comment, because I'm interested in hearing of others situations, which makes me think of how I would rule, then see what other forum members have to say. I believe that this forum, and others, have helped me to become a better umpire, and think that's the same for others.

Over the years, I've come to respect the opinion of posters like Tim C, who've shown online that they know what they're talking about. Every year, new umpires become new posters, and, I assume, want the same online experience that I enjoy here.

I pick and choose what questions I want to read, and also those following comments. If a long time poster has heard the same Q over and over, it might be best for the site, the OP, and others reading to just answer the Q or dont respond.

New umpires have enough to deal with. Remember your first couple years? I certainly wont claim to have known it all, not even today.
But I'm just being selfish- the more forum members we have, the more interesting things I can read. Lets help each other...

[johnnyg08]

Back in the day, after a foul ball, R1 would stand a foot away from 2B and declare that this was his lead. When the ball was put back into play, he would "steal" 2b.

So they made the retouch after a foul ball rule. That's the intent of the rule. If your runner doesn't do what I described above, you're find.

[Tim C]

"Back in the day, after a foul ball, R1 would stand a foot away from 2B and declare that this was his lead. When the ball was put back into play, he would "steal" 2b."

The player that did this was Don Hoak (eventually a member of the 1960 World Championship Pittsburgh Pirates.)

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Tim C

The player that did this was Don Hoak (eventually a member of the 1960 World Championship Pittsburgh Pirates.)

I'd bet a small amount that it's an urban legend.

[Tim C]

All I know is what I read at the Hall of Fame and in an MLB history book.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I'd bet a small amount that it's an urban legend.

That might be, but Jim Evans teaches it that way too.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by Tim C

The player that did this was Don Hoak (eventually a member of the 1960 World Championship Pittsburgh Pirates.)

I think we are confusing two different rule changes. According to Sports Illustrated, on April 21, 1957, Don Hoak broke up a possible double play by picking up the batted ball and handing it to the shortstop. He was declared out, of course, but the batter and other baserunner were still on base.

The next day, both the National and American League accepted a rule change (that I suppose that today's 7.09 (f) is the descendant of that ruling).

Since this account is from the May 6, 1957 Sports Illustrated, I suspect that it is fairly accurate.

I believe the rule change that led to runners needing to retouch after a foul ball (the modern 5.09 (e)) happened a long time before 1957, perhaps in the 1800's.

[Tim C]

Do me a favor and contact Jim Evans and tell him he is wrong in what he teaches.

I will send a copy of your post to the Hall of Fame so they can correct their records.

Tee

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by tim c

do me a favor and contact jim evans and tell him he is wrong in what he teaches.

I will send a copy of your post to the hall of fame so they can correct their records.

Tee

:d

[Rich Ives]

A lot of people accept urban legends as true. Doesn't make them true.

Evans should read his own book. In the JEA it says:

"Historical Notes: The game was originally designed to be played at a faster pace than the game we know today. Following a dead ball, umpires traditionally put balls into play sooner than they do today; and a runner who failed to return to his base before being tagged after a foul ball was liable to be put out. In 1887, runners were relieved of the responsibility of running while returning as long as they did not "unnecessarily delay the game."

"Professional Interpretation: Technically speaking, the umpire is at fault for ever putting a ball back in play before runners legally retouch their bases. However, to expedite play, this is done frequently."

So obviously the need to return was in place LONG before Hoak was born.