Hybrid Pitching Stance

[jicecone]

Well, I had my first games of the season Friday night. (DH). A little chilly for Southern standards but, it was good to be back on the field.

At the plate meeting we discussed the POE's and sure enough in the 3rd inning, with a runner on third, the pitcher stands in the hybrid position and pitches as if it is a windup. After I call the balk and again, explain to the coach, he admits that he hadn't really paid any attention to the POE's.

Oh well, good to back on the field, got 4 games scheduled this week.

PS: I did get a pitcher ask about the 3-1 move being disallowed. I told him that it is still allowed by NFHS rules but, next year when he gets to the Pro's it will probably not be allowed.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by jicecone

with a runner on third, the pitcher stands in the hybrid position and pitches as if it is a windup. After I call the balk and again, explain to the coach, he admits that he hadn't really paid any attention to the POE's.

I've balked this in years past, but never balled it with no runners on (nobody gave a flip, including me). Now they POE it and want us enforce it all the time. Maybe a lesson learned with a ball called cost less than a balk in a run called.

And a ball called (versus a balk called) probably reduces the likehood of a coach accusing us of OOO'ing it...ah, that's just crazy talk.

[ozzy6900]

Seeing as how it is the coaches who have the largest voice in FED rules, I say if it's in the POE, then balk the crap out of them!

Their rules - their problem, not mine!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

seeing as how it is the coaches who have the largest voice in fed rules, i say if it's in the poe, then balk the crap out of them!

their rules - their problem, not mine!

+4000

[lawump]

I truly see this as a reincarnation (on the high school level) of 1988's year of the balk.

They are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Here is a not-so-bold prediction: I will eject someone over this POE this year.

[jicecone]

This is straight forward stuff. Your either in the windup or set position depending upon the position of your feet. When in either position there are guidleines to follow, (aka Rules).

This is exactly how I explained the Balk call to the coach. Two distinct positions.

The only reason you may be ejecting someone is because they are ignorant, (which means they sholud be ejected more often) or you have to cleanup after other umpires that want to get paid but, not do their job.

Actually, if you take a closer look at this, in reality it is making your job easier. Your either in a Set or Windup position or your not.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by lawump

I truly see this as a reincarnation (on the high school level) of 1988's year of the balk.

They are making a mountain out of a molehill.

But there is a difference with the HS rule set. In Fed, in the wind-up position, you can not step and throw to a base to try to pickoff a runner without disengaging first (not so in OBR). For example a LHP in the windup position can not step and throw to 3B without disengaging first. If F1 is in this hybrid stance (which is a legal set stance) can he or can he not step and throw to a base. How can you balk F1 in my example for throwing to 3B, if he is in a legal set position?

If he is in a legal set position and he starts to go into a wind-up, that is a balk. You can't have both the advantage of a set position and go into a wind-up.

Now balling this with no runners on? That's looking for trouble.

[maven]

Originally Posted by lawump

Here is a not-so-bold prediction: I will eject someone over this POE this year.

law, it doesn't have to come to that. I enforced the rule last season without any ejections.

Treat it as game management: when the starting F1 or any sub is warming up, he's usually in the windup (some relievers use only the set, and for them it won't matter). If they're in a "hybrid" stance, I speak to the head coach about it.

Early in the season, I treat it as something the state wants us to enforce; later in the season, I tell them it's going to be enforced in the tournament. Either way, they'll want to address it now.

I did this 4 or 5 times last season. Three times, the pitching coach came over, heard what I was saying, and hollered to his F1 to "get on the rubber!" I'd guess that he had instructed his F1 to do it correctly, but the kid ignored him.

So for those teams, at least, the coaches and I were on the same page.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bluehair

If F1 is in this hybrid stance (which is a legal set stance) ...

The "hybrid" stance I am familiar with has F1 with his pivot foot across (perpendicular to) the rubber and his free foot in front of, and often past the side edge of, the rubber. This is not legal. The pivot foot is legal only from the windup, and the free foot is legal only from the set.

[jicecone]

Exactly Dash, your either in the Set position or the Windup. Half Set and half Windup is illegal. Call the Ball or Balk and eventually they will get the message.

If anything it is clearly defined what is expected, just enforce it.

[lawump]

You guys will not convince me otherwise: they are making a mountain out of a molehill with this POE. They are causing a problem that just is not there...just like MLB in 1988.

I have attended our state pre-season clinic given by the state assistant commissioner for baseball (a non-baseball person...a nice guy, but a non-baseball person). They have given us our marching orders: balk it (or ball it), or else.

This has never, ever been an issue in over a decade of doing FED ball. I have never heard of the term "hybrid stance" until FED came up with it this year. I've never had a pitcher take to the mound where I have not been able to tell which stance he was using. I've never once even come close to have an argument with an offensive coach who argued that a pitcher was using the opposite stance than the one I adjudged the pitcher to be using. Not once. I have not even had an argument where a coach argued that a pitcher was using an illegal stance and gaining an advantage (such as confusing the runners).

But with this POE AND the accompanying diagrams of pitchers' feet location (in both the NFHS pre-season guide and the NFHS overhead slides that were shown to all the umpires and coaches at our state pre-season clinic) they have made clear that what has been allowed (if not by rule, by fact) without incident for GOD knows how long in pro ball, NCAA and, even, FED will now be a balk or ball in FED.

As depicted in a picture from another thread, I have never once had any manager, coach or player on any level ever argue that a pitcher using the stance shown in this picture is pitching from anything other than the wind-up.

NFHS Rules: Pitcher's Stances.

Like in 1988, sometimes it is best just to let sleeping dogs lie. As President of our association I have already fielded calls from persons complaining about our umpires calling balls and balks in enforcing this rule...and these have only occurred in scrimmages. Our season doesn't start until this Saturday.

P.S. I'm not a fan of the "warn them early in the season and then call it when it gets to tournament (or playoff) time." I strive for consistency from myself and my association's umpires for the entire season. Unless they actually change the rules during the season...what is called and enforced in late February will be called and enforced the same exact way by our umpires at the State Championships in May.

[jicecone]

I remember when "a change in direction" was acceptable in NFHS Pitching also.

Things change, that's called life.

But it is NFHS's "mountain and molehill". When I get my own, I will do my way!!

[dash_riprock]

I don't care if it's a mountain or a molehill. If FED wants me to call it (and obviously they do), I will. It will be far worse if some umps call it and some don't.

[umpjim]

It is a mountain out of a molehill. The POE says they are using the hybrid to deceive the runner. They are using the hybrid to emulate MLB pitchers. This rule, which has been in the book for as long is I have known, has not been enforced until last year (not strongly) and now this year (strongly as per FED) in my area. No body has ever been deceived and I bet they would even know if Cliff Lee was in the windup or not if he was pitching HS.
Now let's go after the TOP in the windup in FED. Both arms moving to a stop is a ball or balk. Time to make that a POE.

I agree with lawump:
This has never, ever been an issue in over a decade of doing FED ball. I have never heard of the term "hybrid stance" until FED came up with it this year. I've never had a pitcher take to the mound where I have not been able to tell which stance he was using. I've never once even come close to have an argument with an offensive coach who argued that a pitcher was using the opposite stance than the one I adjudged the pitcher to be using. Not once. I have not even had an argument where a coach argued that a pitcher was using an illegal stance and gaining an advantage (such as confusing the runners).

[bluehair]

And though I identified a possibility of a problem with a legal set position/wind-up hybrid variation being a problem (yes, often the free foot is in front of and not to the side of the rubber), I think they made a mountain out of a molehill also (especially with no runners on).

And it kind of hacks me off that they made it a POE. Because after the time I did balk home a R3, I brought the play up at our next chapter meeting. There, the same people who informed me that this was an illegel stance two weeks before I made the balk call (with the foot prints you now see in the POE) were now telling me I was OOO'ing it with that balk. Saying if he always does his wind-up that way, why pick up that end of the stick. Now its a POE and they have no recollection of me bringing this up 3 years ago...NICE.