Hybrid Pitching Stance

[ozzy6900]

Seeing as how it is the coaches who have the largest voice in FED rules, I say if it's in the POE, then balk the crap out of them!

Their rules - their problem, not mine!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

seeing as how it is the coaches who have the largest voice in fed rules, i say if it's in the poe, then balk the crap out of them!

their rules - their problem, not mine!

+4000

[lawump]

I truly see this as a reincarnation (on the high school level) of 1988's year of the balk.

They are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Here is a not-so-bold prediction: I will eject someone over this POE this year.

[jicecone]

This is straight forward stuff. Your either in the windup or set position depending upon the position of your feet. When in either position there are guidleines to follow, (aka Rules).

This is exactly how I explained the Balk call to the coach. Two distinct positions.

The only reason you may be ejecting someone is because they are ignorant, (which means they sholud be ejected more often) or you have to cleanup after other umpires that want to get paid but, not do their job.

Actually, if you take a closer look at this, in reality it is making your job easier. Your either in a Set or Windup position or your not.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by lawump

I truly see this as a reincarnation (on the high school level) of 1988's year of the balk.

They are making a mountain out of a molehill.

But there is a difference with the HS rule set. In Fed, in the wind-up position, you can not step and throw to a base to try to pickoff a runner without disengaging first (not so in OBR). For example a LHP in the windup position can not step and throw to 3B without disengaging first. If F1 is in this hybrid stance (which is a legal set stance) can he or can he not step and throw to a base. How can you balk F1 in my example for throwing to 3B, if he is in a legal set position?

If he is in a legal set position and he starts to go into a wind-up, that is a balk. You can't have both the advantage of a set position and go into a wind-up.

Now balling this with no runners on? That's looking for trouble.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bluehair

If F1 is in this hybrid stance (which is a legal set stance) ...

The "hybrid" stance I am familiar with has F1 with his pivot foot across (perpendicular to) the rubber and his free foot in front of, and often past the side edge of, the rubber. This is not legal. The pivot foot is legal only from the windup, and the free foot is legal only from the set.

[jicecone]

Exactly Dash, your either in the Set position or the Windup. Half Set and half Windup is illegal. Call the Ball or Balk and eventually they will get the message.

If anything it is clearly defined what is expected, just enforce it.

[lawump]

You guys will not convince me otherwise: they are making a mountain out of a molehill with this POE. They are causing a problem that just is not there...just like MLB in 1988.

I have attended our state pre-season clinic given by the state assistant commissioner for baseball (a non-baseball person...a nice guy, but a non-baseball person). They have given us our marching orders: balk it (or ball it), or else.

This has never, ever been an issue in over a decade of doing FED ball. I have never heard of the term "hybrid stance" until FED came up with it this year. I've never had a pitcher take to the mound where I have not been able to tell which stance he was using. I've never once even come close to have an argument with an offensive coach who argued that a pitcher was using the opposite stance than the one I adjudged the pitcher to be using. Not once. I have not even had an argument where a coach argued that a pitcher was using an illegal stance and gaining an advantage (such as confusing the runners).

But with this POE AND the accompanying diagrams of pitchers' feet location (in both the NFHS pre-season guide and the NFHS overhead slides that were shown to all the umpires and coaches at our state pre-season clinic) they have made clear that what has been allowed (if not by rule, by fact) without incident for GOD knows how long in pro ball, NCAA and, even, FED will now be a balk or ball in FED.

As depicted in a picture from another thread, I have never once had any manager, coach or player on any level ever argue that a pitcher using the stance shown in this picture is pitching from anything other than the wind-up.

NFHS Rules: Pitcher's Stances.

Like in 1988, sometimes it is best just to let sleeping dogs lie. As President of our association I have already fielded calls from persons complaining about our umpires calling balls and balks in enforcing this rule...and these have only occurred in scrimmages. Our season doesn't start until this Saturday.

P.S. I'm not a fan of the "warn them early in the season and then call it when it gets to tournament (or playoff) time." I strive for consistency from myself and my association's umpires for the entire season. Unless they actually change the rules during the season...what is called and enforced in late February will be called and enforced the same exact way by our umpires at the State Championships in May.

[jicecone]

I remember when "a change in direction" was acceptable in NFHS Pitching also.

Things change, that's called life.

But it is NFHS's "mountain and molehill". When I get my own, I will do my way!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by lawump

they have made clear that what has been allowed (if not by rule, by fact) without incident for GOD knows how long in pro ball, NCAA and, even, FED will now be a balk or ball in FED.

It was a rule change / POE in NCAA a few years ago (5 maybe?) Took pitchers < 1 month to adjust.

(Note that in NCAA, the free foot must be entirely in front of the pivot foot to be in the set; in FED it's a set if the foot is in front of the rubber.)

[bluehair]

OK, my mistake. I thought you had a problem with the free foot. But I was talking about a hybrid possible being a legal set position.

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The "hybrid" stance I am familiar with has F1 with his pivot foot across (perpendicular to) the rubber and his free foot in front of, and often past the side edge of, the rubber. This is not legal.

What in your hybrid variation makes it not a legal set position?
His pivot foot ? cite please.
His free foot ? cite please

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by bluehair

OK, my mistake. I thought you had a problem with the free foot. But I was talking about a hybrid possible being a legal set position.


What in your hybrid variation makes it not a legal set position?
His pivot foot ? cite please.
His free foot ? cite please

The hybrid stance mentioned violates the requirements because one foot might meet the requirements but the other won't.

It's not a set because the pivot foot is not "with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate." (6-1-3). It's not a windup because the "pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate." (6-1-2).

If the non-pivot is in front, then the pivot has to be entirely in contact, not just astride or touching.

[maven]

Originally Posted by lawump

Here is a not-so-bold prediction: I will eject someone over this POE this year.

law, it doesn't have to come to that. I enforced the rule last season without any ejections.

Treat it as game management: when the starting F1 or any sub is warming up, he's usually in the windup (some relievers use only the set, and for them it won't matter). If they're in a "hybrid" stance, I speak to the head coach about it.

Early in the season, I treat it as something the state wants us to enforce; later in the season, I tell them it's going to be enforced in the tournament. Either way, they'll want to address it now.

I did this 4 or 5 times last season. Three times, the pitching coach came over, heard what I was saying, and hollered to his F1 to "get on the rubber!" I'd guess that he had instructed his F1 to do it correctly, but the kid ignored him.

So for those teams, at least, the coaches and I were on the same page.