NLCS blown base award

[UES]

Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by UES

Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.

Six set of eyes on the play. No complaints. Let it ride.

[bob jenkins]

100% a jump turn.

To be a disengagement, he has to place the foot on the ground before separating the hands or turning the hip / starting the step toward first.

Ask yourself: If Cain had made the same move but held on to the ball, would you have it as legal or a balk?

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

100% a jump turn.

To be a disengagement, he has to place the foot on the ground before separating the hands or turning the hip / starting the step toward first.

Ask yourself: If Cain had made the same move but held on to the ball, would you have it as legal or a balk?

Bob, is this still your opinion?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Bob, is this still your opinion?

Ignoring any quibble over whether this was a jump turn or a jab step, etc -- yes. I have it as a move to first and a (correct) one base award.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Ignoring any quibble over whether this was a jump turn or a jab step, etc -- yes. I have it as a move to first and a (correct) one base award.

In light of Bob P.'s explanation?

[maven]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

In light of Bob P.'s explanation?

That explanation is consistent with ruling the move a jump step.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by UES

Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.

Wuss.

Seriously, that's not a jump turn, IMO. Both feet didn't go airborne simultaneously as he turned. He clearly disengaged and stepped back with his pivot foot first before his free foot became airborne. If he had executed this move to feint the runner back to first, you might catch heck if you balked him.

Perhaps in real time, it looked more like a jump turn than not. But the slo-mo replay is convincing enough, to me anyway, that this should have been a two-base award.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If he had executed this move to feint the runner back to first, you might catch heck if you balked him.

You'd catch way more if you DIDN'T balk him. Your criteria are wrong.

Edit to add: Heck ... the ball is out of his glove BEFORE the first foot hits the ground. This is absolutely not a legal disengagement.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I will happily be corrected if the live video is posted but from what I see this is a kicked call.

Yep.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

100% a jump turn.

To be a disengagement, he has to place the foot on the ground before separating the hands or turning the hip / starting the step toward first.

Ask yourself: If Cain had made the same move but held on to the ball, would you have it as legal or a balk?

Legal. He disengaged with his pivot foot. This same play with the pitcher not throwing to first happens all the time and no one balks it.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You'd catch way more if you DIDN'T balk him. Your criteria are wrong.

Edit to add: Heck ... the ball is out of his hand BEFORE the first foot hits the ground. This is absolutely not a legal disengagement.

You must be watching video of a different play, because if you pause it at the 2 second mark, his pivot foot is clearly on the ground behind the rubber and the ball is still in his hand. Have your own opinion if you want, but don't blatantly make up things about the video that just aren't there simply to advance your point.

[rpumpire]

In a jump turn, both feet remain in front of the rubber. In this move by Cain, the pivot foot disengaged by stepping behind the rubber.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by rpumpire

In a jump turn, both feet remain in front of the rubber. In this move by Cain, the pivot foot disengaged by stepping behind the rubber.

That's what I'm seeing as well. What am I missing here?

[maven]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

That's what I'm seeing as well. What am I missing here?

You're accepting an incorrect definition of jump turn. It's defined more by what it isn't than what it is, and it isn't a legal disengagement.

Nothing requires that a jump turn have both feet in front of the rubber, or indeed both in the air at once. All that's required is a legal step and (if to 1B) then a throw.

[RPatrino]

If Cain hadn't thrown to first, would you have balked him? I would. Why?

His 'disengagement' and throw to first were in one continuous motion. This makes it a 'jump turn'. There was no distinct stop and drop of the hands, which to me would be a complete disengagement of the rubber. At this point, if he stopped, disengaged and then overthrew first, would be a 2 base award.

[Manny A]

Okay, then somebody please explain how a RHP executes a "jump turn". I always believed both feet had to come up simultaneously--in other words, the pitcher "jumps", which is why the move has that word in it.

Heck, to me, this looks more like a jab-step, but he "jabs" his foot behind the rubber instead of in front of it. And since the jab is behind the rubber, it constitutes a disengagement.

And, No, I don't have Jim Evans's balk video.