Bothched foul tip call yesterdays Wash. Nat'ls game

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by David B

yep that's pretty bad on an easy obvious call. Sometimes even the best get lazy and aren't tuned in to the game.

Who was lazy?

If we believe the announcer, the PU apparently had a catch that resulted in a foul tip and then a dropped exchange. How would you as PU indicate that that's what you saw? On a more routine catch and drop--say the pivot man at the front end of an attempted DP--the proper mechanic is to signal the out at the base, and then signal the voluntary release (pulling the hands apart), followed by another emphatic out signal, correct?

We didn't see all that play out on the video because the camera never stayed on the PU long enough, but that's what the announcer indicated. Seems to me if that's what the PU thought happened, he came up with the right mechanic. I can't think of another way to signal a catch-and-dropped release on a foul tip.

If anyone was lazy, it was U2. He shouldn't be coming up with a foul signal if he sees his partner give the foul tip indication. He should have just kept his arms down.

That all said, I do agree that the PU had very questionable judgment on the play. No way the catcher caught that ball, IMO.

[rbmartin]

This was a very correctable error. It's not that unusual for a field umpire to kill the play and rule "foul ball" on a play in the box that HP doesn't see (ie foul ball catches the batters toe before rolling into fair territory). It is obvious that at least U2 saw the play and should have killed it.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

This was a very correctable error. It's not that unusual for a field umpire to kill the play and rule "foul ball" on a play in the box that HP doesn't see (ie foul ball catches the batters toe before rolling into fair territory). It is obvious that at least U2 saw the play and should have killed it.

I disagree. This was essentially a catch/no-catch call that the responsible umpire may have missed. Another umpire should not come in right away to overrule his/her partner when that happens.

If U2 definitely had a catch, why didn't he pipe up during the conference? From the video, it appeared to me he had nothing to say.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I disagree. This was essentially a catch/no-catch call that the responsible umpire may have missed. Another umpire should not come in right away to overrule his/her partner when that happens.

If U2 definitely had a catch, why didn't he pipe up during the conference? From the video, it appeared to me he had nothing to say.

But ... U2 definitely DIDN'T have a catch.

[jicecone]

Bottom line they screwed the pooch, both the HPU and the crew.

HPU either blew it and didn't want to face up to it afterwards or the crew supported him because the OC came to the crew chief first.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

But ... U2 definitely DIDN'T have a catch.

That's what I meant. Sorry...

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jicecone

...or the crew supported him because the OC came to the crew chief first.

FYC alert!!

[DG]

Call missed, but far from terrible. Terrible is safe call at 1B after 26 outs to blow a perfect game.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Who was lazy?



If anyone was lazy, it was U2. He shouldn't be coming up with a foul signal if he sees his partner give the foul tip indication. He should have just kept his arms down.

That all said, I do agree that the PU had very questionable judgment on the play. No way the catcher caught that ball, IMO.

You got it. U2 looked about as engaged as Obama did last night in the debate.

He should have called a big foul ball - not ignore PU who obviously wasn't paying attention either.

Thanks
DAVid

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by David B

You got it. U2 looked about as engaged as Obama did last night in the debate.

He should have called a big foul ball - not ignore PU who obviously wasn't paying attention either.

Sooo, batter swings and nicks a low pitch, and the catcher fields it on the short-hop. PU doesn't see the ball touch dirt, and he rules a foul tip. The BU sees that the catcher didn't catch the ball on the fly, and he gives his partner a subtle signal of that fact. But the PU never looked at his partner for help.

You're saying that the BU should at that point come up with a foul call?

First and foremost, I didn't think BUs were supposed to help their PU partners with a foul call in similar situations, such as when they see a batted ball hit the batter. They are supposed to call Time. But more importantly, in those situations, it is an accepted practice that a BU help out immediately.

I don't think the same is true on the foul tip or foul ball. It's like the BU calling a stealing runner at second out on the tag, and the PU seeing the ball loose during the tag. Should the PU come up immediately with a safe call?

I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand what is now allowed when it comes to one umpire overruling another.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Sooo, batter swings and nicks a low pitch, and the catcher fields it on the short-hop. PU doesn't see the ball touch dirt, and he rules a foul tip. The BU sees that the catcher didn't catch the ball on the fly, and he gives his partner a subtle signal of that fact. But the PU never looked at his partner for help.

You're saying that the BU should at that point come up with a foul call?

First and foremost, I didn't think BUs were supposed to help their PU partners with a foul call in similar situations, such as when they see a batted ball hit the batter. They are supposed to call Time. But more importantly, in those situations, it is an accepted practice that a BU help out immediately.

I don't think the same is true on the foul tip or foul ball. It's like the BU calling a stealing runner at second out on the tag, and the PU seeing the ball loose during the tag. Should the PU come up immediately with a safe call?

I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand what is now allowed when it comes to one umpire overruling another.

That's a completely different scenario than this play, but if i'm PU, yes I want my partner coming out and saying time, foul ball, whatever because he knows that I did NOT see it.

I know you're just throwing out a sitch for argument, but in this play everyone in the ballpark knew it was a foul ball except for the PU.
Yes, the BU should have come out with a stong foul ball.

Now, I know maybe in MLB they don't do that??
But in the leagues that I officiate, it's not only common practice but also expected.

There are many times when as PU you just can't tell. Same on dropped third strike etc.,

Thanks
DAvid

[jicecone]

I agree if I am behind home plate, I want my partner to give me a chance to acknowledge if I saw the action or not and then if it is evident I didn't , speak up, call time and get it correct.

HS game several years ago, we had a tipped ball that went to the catchers chest and he trapped it and gloved it quickly. I certainly didn't see this and my partner quickly called time and returned R1.

I have looked at this video another three times and, this is a perfect example of how the media justifies calling for replay on everything. HPU just blew it and didn't want to admit it.

[rbmartin]

When I'm HP and doing my pre-game, I always tell my partners "Hey, if you see a foul ball in the box, speak up. You're not gonna step on my toes."