Overturned Balk

[SAump]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

The back foot clearly disengages the rubber before the feint to 1st. I think what makes the play look odd to some people is that during the feint to 3rd, there is no accompanting arm action. According to Jim Evans, this is not a requirement. An odd-looking play from the mound does not always equal a balk.

Next year this will be a balk in MLB if I read correctly. So use it while you can.

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

Comment Clarification: (j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base. Once legally positioned or set, the pitcher must keep both hands (gloved and bare) together until he pitches, attempts a pick-off or other play or steps off the rubber.

Excellent example: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14523967

Why is this a balk? http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=22128067

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

So we're just making up our own rules now....wonderful.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

There was no balk here and I do not understand why all of a sudden, the 3rd to 1st move is so difficult for people and umpires to deal with. It seems that I woke up one morning and the world turned stupid! It's a legal move designed to deceive the runner at 1st and getting an out.

Is it that or fans don't like seeing it? Also, it helps to stop some of the deliberate delay. I'm just guessing if these may be reasons for getting rid of it. That and the fact that 99% of them are a waste of time b/c the pitchers give it away long before they even attempt it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

I count six sentences above. Only the first is true, but it's not relevant to the play, and it's not a balk to step onto the rubber with the hands together.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I count six sentences above. Only the first is true, but it's not relevant to the play, and it's not a balk to step onto the rubber with the hands together.

Thank you for being gentle to the poster. I hope he gets it.

[Chris_Hickman]

I think Chad thought he fainted a throw to first and did not see the pitcher faint to 3rd prior to.....

[Chris_Hickman]

I thing saumps is saying is that a pitcher cannot, from the set, straddle the rubber, put his hands together, then engage the rubber, then separate his hands.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well.. he was wrong, wasn't he?

I'm trying hard to find "it looks like a jabstep" or even "it looks different than I'm used to" in my rulebook, and can't find it.

He CLEARLY disengages at 1:04-05 in the video. And not just by a little bit - his foot moves toward third by about half the length of the rubber. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

I agree he steps from the far edge of the rubber on the first base side to the middle of the rubber. But I don't think that he has legally disengaged the rubber. Has he gained any distance toward 3B if his foot clearly lands in front of the rubber?

His back foot is closer to 3B after he turns to fake a throw back to first base. You'll notice it passed the rear edge of the rubber on the third base side. Shouldn't the pitcher move his lead foot off the edge of the rubber to gain distance and direction before his throw or feint?

[bob jenkins]

No. No.

[jicecone]

MLB 8.01c
"At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural
pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw."

As long as he steps and gains distance, then disengages the plate, it doesn't matter where he ends up. It does not stipulate that the pitcher needs to clear the end of the plate.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Is it that or fans don't like seeing it? Also, it helps to stop some of the deliberate delay. I'm just guessing if these may be reasons for getting rid of it. That and the fact that 99% of them are a waste of time b/c the pitchers give it away long before they even attempt it.

Actually, GA, I can see where the fans have a hard time dealing with this but they still thing a base award is the base you were going to plus one.

What surprises me is how umpires, who should be able to break this move down on the spot and rule correctly, can't even understand when F1 is set, on or off the rubber -- sigh.... I was right. I woke up one morning and the world got stupid while I slept.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Actually, GA, I can see where the fans have a hard time dealing with this but they still thing a base award is the base you were going to plus one.

What surprises me is how umpires, who should be able to break this move down on the spot and rule correctly, can't even understand when F1 is set, on or off the rubber -- sigh.... I was right. I woke up one morning and the world got stupid while I slept.

No kidding. I can not believe some of the posts I am reading here. This is not a balk.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well.. he was wrong, wasn't he?

I'm trying hard to find "it looks like a jabstep" or even "it looks different than I'm used to" in my rulebook, and can't find it.

He CLEARLY disengages at 1:04-05 in the video. And not just by a little bit - his foot moves toward third by about half the length of the rubber. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

Perhaps I don't understand what a jab-step entails.

Suppose this pitcher never made that initial move to third. Wouldn't his disengagement of his pivot foot toward third while he turns, steps and throws to first be a jab-step?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber. His subsequent move to first looked just like a jab-step, because the pivot foot disengaged simultaneously as he was making the move to first. At least that's how it looked to me.

From 8.05(c): "However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

This pither, IMO, did not step off the rubber before making the move to first. He started his move to first with a jab-step, which comes simultaneously with the move.

I think you nailed him simulating a pickoff to third, but the other folks here seem to think he legally disengaged from the rubber. They claim Jim Evans says it legal, so it's legal, right?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by SAump

I think you nailed him simulating a pickoff to third, but the other folks here seem to think he legally disengaged from the rubber. They claim Jim Evans says it legal, so it's legal, right?

Why can't he feint to third? What is illegal about that?

It's legal because he disengages before throwing to first base. Can you show me where his foot was still on the rubber while he was throwing to first?