MLB Umpire, UNSOLICITED, Overturns Another Umpire's Call

[ozzy6900]

This is what you all get with your "board meeting" and "let's get the play right" junk that has been going on these last 5 or so years. Now, from out of the "blue", the correction call is made and it will not be the last time you see it!

Get your own calls right the first time and this crap wouldn't happen!

[REFANDUMP]

Once again, an umpire ventures too far onto the diamond to get a bad angle on a play at first. 2 to 3 steps is plenty, and keeps these types of mistakes from happening. I have no idea why the plate umpire made this overrule without first having the 1st base umpire come to him if he had a question. This sets a bad prescedent in my opinion.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Once again, an umpire ventures too far onto the diamond to get a bad angle on a play at first. 2 to 3 steps is plenty, and keeps these types of mistakes from happening.

This. Especially in a 4-man crew with bases empty.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Once again, an umpire ventures too far onto the diamond to get a bad angle on a play at first. 2 to 3 steps is plenty, and keeps these types of mistakes from happening. I have no idea why the plate umpire made this overrule without first having the 1st base umpire come to him if he had a question. This sets a bad prescedent in my opinion.

Sorry, I don't buy this. If U1 read the throw properly and made a read step, he gets this call easily. I've seen more bad/lazy umpiring from the 2SF crowd than from those that work to get the proper 90-degree angle.

[REFANDUMP]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

Sorry, I don't buy this. If U1 read the throw properly and made a read step, he gets this call easily. I've seen more bad/lazy umpiring from the 2SF crowd than from those that work to get the proper 90-degree angle.

Sorry, can't agree with you. I see no advantages to the 90, and have seen 3 MLB problems caused this year because of this position. What advantage is gained by going to a position which makes it more difficult to see a pulled foot or swipe tag ??

[UES]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Sorry, can't agree with you. I see no advantages to the 90...

Sometimes, it's just preference. Back in the day, many NL umpires preferred taking plays @ 1st just a couple steps inside the line (as REFANDUMP says) while many AL umpires used the 90 degree/angle-distance (as GROUPthink says).

Regardless of what method you use (there's pros & cons to both), everyone should always READ the throw, recognize the flight/direction of the ball and then set yourself accordingly. Once again, easier said then done

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Sorry, can't agree with you. I see no advantages to the 90, and have seen 3 MLB problems caused this year because of this position. What advantage is gained by going to a position which makes it more difficult to see a pulled foot or swipe tag ??

There are hazards with both, and you have to read and react on both. The ONLY advantage I really see is that 90 FORCES some hustle, where as 2SF doesn't - and in new guys, I think forcing the hustle eliminates any possible laziness - where as 2SF kind of lends itself to laziness.

However ... "laziness" should not be an issue at this level at all.

[jicecone]

I agree, the correct position is the one that enables you to see all of the action and still have the ability to adjust when something goes against the norm.

2SF, 90Deg, etc, are all good suggested starting points but, there is no perfect position if you aren't seeing the whole play and makig the right call.

In this situation as a veteran I probably would have been pissed that HP overruled the way he did however, for this situation, given those involved, it was handled properly.

Proper Mechanics is a good start to getting the call correct but, it doesn't work for every single play and you have to read and react and be willing to go that extra step to get the correct call.

[UES]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Once again, an umpire ventures too far onto the diamond to get a bad angle on a play at first. 2 to 3 steps is plenty, and keeps these types of mistakes from happening.

I'm not as opposed to his positioning as I am that he did NOT read a true throw and made NO attempt to adjust to how the play developed ie. get a better angle... basically, he just let himself get straightlined. The ball was hit in the hole at SS and it was a long throw across the infield. This should have given him plenty of time to read that the throw was off line and make the necessary read step(s) one way or another to atleast try to see the pulled foot. Easier said, then done...especially at MLB speed but I would have just liked to see him make some kind of effort to readjust his angle.

[BSUmp16]

Well, let's start off with the fact that they got the call right - the foot was off the bag. Second, the HP umpire's job on that play is to go up first base line and watch to see that the foot is not pulled from the bag, so that was correct too.

Where they went wrong (in my opinion) is that instead of waiting for U1 to ask for help (which he should do if the question involves a pulled foot) and then allowing U1 to reverse his own call based on the new information, the HP ump immediately jumps in and "overrules" U1.

That just leads to more requests by HC to overrule other calls and gets the HP ump involved in every play. Next thing you know, you'll have Joe Maddon asking the HP ump to overrule a close call at 2B. Not good.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, let's start off with the fact that they got the call right - the foot was off the bag. Second, the HP umpire's job on that play is to go up first base line and watch to see that the foot is not pulled from the bag, so that was correct too.

Where they went wrong (in my opinion) is that instead of waiting for U1 to ask for help (which he should do if the question involves a pulled foot) and then allowing U1 to reverse his own call based on the new information, the HP ump immediately jumps in and "overrules" U1.

That just leads to more requests by HC to overrule other calls and gets the HP ump involved in every play. Next thing you know, you'll have Joe Maddon asking the HP ump to overrule a close call at 2B. Not good.

I agree with all of this except the first sentence. Frame by Frame - and there is one frame with the foot on the bag and ball just barely not in the glove, and the next frame has ball in the glove and foot just off the bag. It is inconclusive whether this was a correct call or not.

[Manny A]

Does anybody have insight into what MLB umpires are being told to do now? Is this really a case of an umpire having a brain fart, or are the powers-that-be instructing them to change their ways, as was apparently the case when they removed a string bracelet off a pitcher's wrist?

I find it completely unfathomable that a professional umpire at the highest level would just blatantly commit one of the most egregious of umpiring sins. Could it possibly be something that they are being instructed to do to counter the potential expansion of instant replay?

The sudden spike in umpires making Out calls on tag plays when the fielder doesn't have the ball is one thing. But to call Time and immedately overrule another umpire's call without that umpire asking for help? That's stuff a rookie volunteer umpire in a local Little League coach-pitch game might do just once before he/she is taught the error of his/her way. I would never believe it would happen in a pro...

Oh, wait. I'm seeing flashbacks of Tim McLelland and Angel Hernandez again...

[Welpe]

I'm having a flashback to a Colt game this season where my partner did this to me and I nearly hit the roof. In my situation, there was no doubt at all that the F3 held the bag on a fairly routine play and the PU came out screaming he was off. I don't think I've ever been that mad at a partner on the field before.

[UES]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I find it completely unfathomable that a professional umpire at the highest level would just blatantly commit one of the most egregious of umpiring sins. Could it possibly be something that they are being instructed to do to counter the potential expansion of instant replay?

... But to call Time and immedately overrule another umpire's call without that umpire asking for help? That's stuff a rookie volunteer umpire in a local Little League coach-pitch game might do just once before he/she is taught the error of his/her way. I would never believe it would happen in a pro

I understand your point(s), as well as others, (except for mbcrowder)

If I had to guess here, I would say that Scott Barry saw a "gross" miss and tried to keep Jordan Baker, a young AAA/MLB guy from getting into a "Tim Welke" sh!thouse (and possibly all over SportsCenter) Yes, he definitely did NOT follow the protocol, but I do think he had good intentions despite going about it in untraditional fashion.

The big question is what if that was his Crew Chief making the call @ 1B - would he have done the same? One thing I learned from Welke's misfortunes is that if a call is BLATANTLY missed because of information he/she did not see, somebody else on the crew MUST step up, solicited or not, and make it right. I don't care if its a crew chief, rookie or whoever - in rare circumstances like these, we must put our egos aside and fix the situation because, at the end of the day, these mishaps will make Umpiring as a whole look bad.

One last point... while Baker may not have liked HOW Barry went about the whole thing, he probably did buy him a beverage after the game and said thanks for saving my a$$ in the end. If you've done any type of televised games with multiple replay angles... you know exactly what I mean. Most here have not so I'm sure I'll get piled on...

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by UES

I don't care if its a crew chief, rookie or whoever - in rare circumstances like these, we must put our egos aside and fix the situation because, at the end of the day, these mishaps will make Umpiring as a whole look bad.

To me, this has zero to do with egos. If I make this call and I have the BR, the 1B Coach, all the players in the dugout, and eventually the team manager all telling me I missed it and I should get help, then By Golly that's what I'm going to do.

That's what should have happened here, but the PU jumped the gun and told everyone in the stadium and watching on TV, "It's now perfectly acceptable for one umpire to immediately overrule another without the benefit of a crew conference." For all we know, Baker might've done exactly what was expected--go for help when asked--and Barry could have then told him what he saw.