INT on a foul ball

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not so sure U1 made that call right away. It was only after the crew got together to discuss it did they make that determination.

He made the int call immediately (not seen in this video, but seen on others) - on this particular video, however, at about 12-13 seconds you can see he's already got a fist in the air before the ball is thrown to first.

In the other video, you can see him put his arm in the air at the point where they collide (looks more like and IFF signal to me) and he points several times at the runner, long before the ball came down.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There seem to be a couple advocating protecting F3. I ask if you would have done so if the batter had run over F2 on this play. I also ask for some justification for protecting F3 given that the ball came within about an inch of actually being caught ... by F2.

The batted ball was more than halfway up the first base line. F2 is running to make what everyone should agree is a very difficult catch for F2 to make, and that's on a ball going away from him.

It doesn't matter that F2 came within an inch of catching the ball. That's not necessarily the criteria to decide who to protect. If R1 hadn't hindered F3, chances are pretty good that he not only would have been just as close to the ball as F2 ended up being, he would have had a much easier play.

And even if the batter had run over F2, that wouldn't have mattered if I had judged F3 was protected AND killed play the moment R1 hindered him.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

My bad... I inferred that you meant F2 when you typed F2. Idiot.

Find a clinic. All I can say.

Mike, I may still be an idiot, but I have no problem with F3 being judged to be making the play - but we are certainly on the same page regarding the ball not being in play as soon as the INT call is made - and the fact that U1's mechanic didn't make sense with the end result of the play...

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Find a clinic. All I can say.

Really? And a clinic would teach me what? I know the rules concerning situations such as these and how to apply them. This is one of those plays that happen very rarely and makes it such that there are exceptions to the literal rule where there are and have been official interpretations concerning these situations.

U1 called INT and signaled IFF. Fair/foul status was yet to be determined on the batted ball. IFF is only in effect on a fair ball.

Similar sitch. R3. Pop up near 3rd base. R3 interfers with F5 attempting catch. You make the INT call but keep the ball live until final status of the ball is determined. If the ball is fair, R3 out, BR awarded first. If ball is foul, R3 out, batter returns to bat.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The batted ball was more than halfway up the first base line. F2 is running to make what everyone should agree is a very difficult catch for F2 to make, and that's on a ball going away from him.

It doesn't matter that F2 came within an inch of catching the ball. That's not necessarily the criteria to decide who to protect. If R1 hadn't hindered F3, chances are pretty good that he not only would have been just as close to the ball as F2 ended up being, he would have had a much easier play.

And even if the batter had run over F2, that wouldn't have mattered if I had judged F3 was protected AND killed play the moment R1 hindered him.

I should have been more specific... to those advocating F3 as the protected fielder here, had F3 not been bumped, would you have allowed BR to plow over F2 without a call?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Mike, I may still be an idiot, but I have no problem with F3 being judged to be making the play - but we are certainly on the same page regarding the ball not being in play as soon as the INT call is made - and the fact that U1's mechanic didn't make sense with the end result of the play...

I called him that because he said,

"F2 is the last fielder protected. I believe the correct call was made."

And then when I told him that if F2 was the protected fielder then the correct call was NOT made, he said, "I don't know how you infer that."

Um ... I "inferred" that he was protecting F2 because he TYPED that he was protecting F2.

You, Hugo, are not an idiot for thinking F3 was the protected fielder. I disagree, but you're not an idiot.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There seem to be a couple advocating protecting F3. I ask if you would have done so if the batter had run over F2 on this play.
(snip).

You would have to determine the MLB ruling on which takes precedence, - although OBS on the BR before reaching first is an immediate dead ball, there are instances where the BR can still be out (such as a caught fly ball) - but that didn't happen here... so

Snip
I also ask for some justification for protecting F3 given that the ball came within about an inch of actually being caught ... by F2

Because as I see it, F3 would have caught the ball if R1 had not interfered

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I should have been more specific... to those advocating F3 as the protected fielder here, had F3 not been bumped, would you have allowed BR to plow over F2 without a call?

This is how I would have ruled given the IFF situation and protecting F3. Let's throw the INT out the window for the sake of this arguement as to not muddy this sitch. OBS called on F2. Ball kept live until fair/foul status determined. If fair, batter out for IFF since the OBS had no bearing on the play. If foul, batter back up to bat, again since OBS had no bearing on the play and the type A OBS rule cannot be enforced on the BR when the ball is foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Really? And a clinic would teach me what? I know the rules concerning situations such as these and how to apply them. This is one of those plays that happen very rarely and makes it such that there are exceptions to the literal rule where there are and have been official interpretations concerning these situations.

U1 called INT and signaled IFF. Fair/foul status was yet to be determined on the batted ball. IFF is only in effect on a fair ball.

Similar sitch. R3. Pop up near 3rd base. R3 interfers with F5 attempting catch. You make the INT call but keep the ball live until final status of the ball is determined. If the ball is fair, R3 out, BR awarded first. If ball is foul, R3 out, batter returns to bat.

It's clear you won't believe me - that's why I suggested asking at a clinic ... or ask someone you think should know. There's so much wrong with the rest of this post I don't even know where to begin.

Two things though, regarding your similar sitch. 1) If the ball rolled foul, would you allow F5 to pick up the ball, throw it to another base, and make a play on another runner? I ask that because that's what happened in the OP, and you seem to be indicating they did nothing wrong.
2) It's interesting that in your sitch, with a fair ball you have 1 out; with a foul ball you also have 1 out. yet on the OP you had 2. How is that again?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I called him that because he said,

"F2 is the last fielder protected. I believe the correct call was made."

Typically, but not always, F2 is the last fielder protected when multiple fielders are converging on a fly ball away from the plate area.

And then when I told him that if F2 was the protected fielder then the correct call was NOT made, he said, "I don't know how you infer that."

Um ... I "inferred" that he was protecting F2 because he TYPED that he was protecting F2.

I see nowhere where I TYPED that I was protecting F2. I did say that I thought the correct call was made, that call being INT on R1 on F3

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

This is how I would have ruled given the IFF situation and protecting F3. Let's throw the INT out the window for the sake of this arguement as to not muddy this sitch. OBS called on F2. Ball kept live until fair/foul status determined. If fair, batter out for IFF since the OBS had no bearing on the play. If foul, batter back up to bat, again since OBS had no bearing on the play and the type A OBS rule cannot be enforced on the BR when the ball is foul.

So how are you explaining the lack of protection of a fielder who in actuality missed making the catch by about 1 inch when the coach comes out?

(Incidentally and mildly related --- anyone notice that neither umpire called OBS on F1, who BR clearly had to slalom around during the somehow live foul ball?)

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It's clear you won't believe me - that's why I suggested asking at a clinic ... or ask someone you think should know. There's so much wrong with the rest of this post I don't even know where to begin.

Two things though, regarding your similar sitch. 1) If the ball rolled foul, would you allow F5 to pick up the ball, throw it to another base, and make a play on another runner? I ask that because that's what happened in the OP, and you seem to be indicating they did nothing wrong.
2) It's interesting that in your sitch, with a fair ball you have 1 out; with a foul ball you also have 1 out. yet on the OP you had 2. How is that again?

Concerning 1) Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said that they did nothing wrong. They did the right thing by keeping the ball live until the fair/foul status was determined. I do not know when the ball was actually killed. TV went straight to the play on R2 so we don't know if someone was killing the ball.

2) In my OP I had R3. Maybe I should have said "R3 only" so you would have understood the sitch more clearly. You are correct, in my OP I have 1 out on a fair ball. From the original sitch, I would have 2 outs on a fair ball. 1 for the INT, 1 for the IFF.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So how are you explaining the lack of protection of a fielder who in actuality missed making the catch by about 1 inch when the coach comes out?

(Incidentally and mildly related --- anyone notice that neither umpire called OBS on F1, who BR clearly had to slalom around during the somehow live foul ball?)

By the fielder missing the catch, it actually makes my case for protecting another fielder easier. If F2 would have made the catch, it would have been a harder sell protecting another fielder when F2 completed the play. I have had to make a call such as this before. INT on a protected fielder where another fielder was close to making the catch. Umpire judgement. That's what we get paid for. We get paid to make the nonroutine calls.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I should have been more specific... to those advocating F3 as the protected fielder here, had F3 not been bumped, would you have allowed BR to plow over F2 without a call?

Well, if F3 had not been bumped, he would have very likely called off F2 to make the catch. If the BR had plowed over F2, the obstruction wouldn't have mattered because he would have been out on the caught fly ball.

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=UmpTTS43;852654]Concerning 1) Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said that they did nothing wrong. They did the right thing by keeping the ball live until the fair/foul status was determined. I do not know when the ball was actually killed. TV went straight to the play on R2 so we don't know if someone was killing the ball.[quote]It was not my intent to put words in your mouth ... in fact I said "seem to be" indicating that I was not positive that was what you were saying. I've seen more angles than the OP (which means Original Post) shows, and it's clear they did not kill the play at all until MUCH later. The only real indication of this on the OP is U3 calling the out near 3rd base on the tag. It's obvious that no umpire emphatically killed this play as they should have. (It should have been killed at the point of Interference... but failing that, it should have been killed when the ball was touched foul - surely you can agree with AT LEAST that).

2) In my OP I had R3. Maybe I should have said "R3 only" so you would have understood the sitch more clearly. You are correct, in my OP I have 1 out on a fair ball. From the original sitch, I would have 2 outs on a fair ball. 1 for the INT, 1 for the IFF.

Sigh. I'll make this simple. Move the OP away from the foul line. Who is out on the IFF? Batter. Exactly what play, then, did the runner interfere with?