3 and You're Out!

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 04, 2012, 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I think this is dependant on the level of play. In a HS game or above, I agree that we don't need to ask a fielder to show us the ball. At lower levels of ball it's not a bad thing to do. I've seen many times when a fielder has applied what looked to be a tag with possesion of the ball end up with the ball under the runner or even the fielder. They both just look up at you while laying in a pile with a deer in the headlights look waiting for you to make a call. A simple "show me the ball" gives them the hint they're looking for.

YMMV

Tim.

There are HS or college players that do not know to do that on certain plays. I have no problem with someone asking if they have not shown them some evidence that they caught the ball. Usually a player that has caught the ball is very willing to show the ball to prove they made the play. I do not see this as a big deal as it is better to make the call based on them having the ball then making a call and assuming.

Peace

BigUmp56 · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 04, 2012, 07:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are HS or college players that do not know to do that on certain plays. I have no problem with someone asking if they have not shown them some evidence that they caught the ball. Usually a player that has caught the ball is very willing to show the ball to prove they made the play. I do not see this as a big deal as it is better to make the call based on them having the ball then making a call and assuming.

Peace

I'm with you, Jeff. The reason I don't think we need to do it in HS and above is because the players at that level know they need to show us the ball on these type of plays. Perhaps it's because both youth associations I belong to instruct our umpires to ask to see the ball, and the HS players that came through those programs are accustomed to it.

Tim.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 04, 2012, 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'm with you, Jeff. The reason I don't think we need to do it in HS and above is because the players at that level know they need to show us the ball on these type of plays. Perhaps it's because both youth associations I belong to instruct our umpires to ask to see the ball, and the HS players that came through those programs are accustomed to it.

Tim.

I do not disagree with that position at all. I just do not see a major problem if someone does either way. But I would not call someone out if it is unclear if they caught the ball. Sometimes it is obvious.

Peace

MD Longhorn · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 08:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not disagree with that position at all. I just do not see a major problem if someone does either way. But I would not call someone out if it is unclear if they caught the ball. Sometimes it is obvious.

Peace

True, but at least 4 times this year, a MLB umpire called a player out when the fielder did not, in fact, have the ball.

dash_riprock · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 08:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not disagree with that position at all. I just do not see a major problem if someone does either way. But I would not call someone out if it is unclear if they caught the ball. Sometimes it is obvious.

Peace

The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 08:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

You lost me here. What do you mean the ball pops out? If you have the tag with the ball, why would it fall out afterwards and be your fault?

Peace

dash_riprock · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You lost me here. What do you mean the ball pops out? If you have the tag with the ball, why would it fall out afterwards and be your fault?

Peace

If the fielder raises his glove to show you the ball and the ball pops out, he just demonstrated he did not control the ball (which is what you need to determine before banging the runner out on the tag). If he is showing you the ball because you told him to do so, it is going to be perceived as being your fault.

Find the ball. It's not that hard. It takes a couple/three seconds under the worst of circumstances. Everyone knows what you are (properly) looking for.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If the fielder raises his glove to show you the ball and the ball pops out, he just demonstrated he did not control the ball (which is what you need to determine before banging the runner out on the tag). If he is showing you the ball because you told him to do so, it is going to be perceived as being your fault.

Never heard that explanation before, but I guess if you feel it is your fault, then you have the right to feel anyway you wish. I think if they cannot demonstrate they controlled the ball, that is on them. And it is not when they come up with the ball I am concerned with, it is the fact they do not have the ball at all I am mostly concerned with. Never had this as an issue and never considered it my fault if a fielder did not have the ball. Then again there are umpires that worry about things I clearly do not worry about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Find the ball. It's not that hard. It takes a couple/three seconds under the worst of circumstances. Everyone knows what you are (properly) looking for.

Once again I did not say it was hard to do or that it is required to ask every single time. Do not project everything based off of one situation we are discussing here. I just know that will not make a call without some demonstration that the fielder has the ball. They might be trying to make the next play and it is obvious they had the ball the entire time. Either way I am not calling out and the ball is 10 feet somewhere else. I am not going to feel responsibility because a player does not have the ball secured. Never felt that way ever in all my years of doing this umpiring thing.

Peace

MD Longhorn · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

dash_riprock · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Eastshire · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

Manny A · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2012, 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?