3 and You're Out!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

I think just the opposite.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.


I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........


Tim.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?

Both. The batter is out, and there was no voluntary release after the catch.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Both. The batter is out, and there was no voluntary release after the catch.

Then, by rule, you would HAVE to call the batter Safe on the uncaught ball. You cannot consider this as "no voluntary release after the catch" because that would make it a no-catch.

That was the point of my response. The ball came out of the glove when the fielder attempted to tag the runner, not when he attempted to make the catch. The catch essentially ended as soon as the fielder turned to begin his chase of the runner. Even if the ball had popped out of his glove as he was running after the runner and before he lunged to make the tag attempt, the catch would still be legal.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Then, by rule, you would HAVE to call the batter Safe on the uncaught ball. You cannot consider this as "no voluntary release after the catch" because that would make it a no-catch.

Incorrect.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Incorrect.

Then please explain to me what I'm missing when I read this in OBR 2.00's Definition of Catch:

In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.