To visit or not to visit...that is the question!

[whitecane12]

Ok, ladies and gents... I had an interesting discussion with some experienced umpires and coaches on this one and would like to read what you have to say.

The discussion centered on what constitutes and official visit to the pitcher especially when a change is being made. Since Little League (Juniors and up) rules allow for a pitcher to be removed from the mound, moved to a playing position and then brought back to the mound a maximum of once per inning, the question then is whether or not at the time the pitcher is swapped for another pitcher, does that count as a visit.

In other words, let's say a coach has visited his pitcher three times already in this game. The rules state that on the 4th visit that pitcher must be removed and cannot return to the mound in that game. The manager calls for and is granted time. He goes straight to the plate umpire and announces that he is moving his pitcher to left field and bringing the left fielder in to pitch. After the new pitcher strikes out the next batter, the manager requests time and it is granted. He goes straight to the plate umpire and says he's bringing the starting pitcher back to the mound.

Does the plate umpire allow the switch or does he inform the manager that the swap made earlier constitutes a 4th visit and his starting pitcher is ineligible even though the manager never actually "visited" the pitcher?

Ok...have at it you guys and gals!

[Rich Ives]

"rules state that on the 4th visit that pitcher must be removed and cannot return to the mound in that game."

The rule does NOT have the last phrase in it.

If he comes back, he is a new pitcher.

[whitecane12]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
"rules state that on the 4th visit that pitcher must be removed and cannot return to the mound in that game."

The rule does NOT have the last phrase in it.

If he comes back, he is a new pitcher.

Are you saying that on the fourth visit the pitcher can then be moved to another position and then return later as a new pitcher and is then entitled to another four visits in that same game before being removed again...and again...? Tell me it ain't so!

Do you realize the chaos that would create? Rule 8.06 (b) of the Little League rules states, "A manager or coach may come out three times in one game to visit with the pitcher, but the fourth time out, the pitcher must be removed as a pitcher."

No where does it state that if that same pitcher is brought back in the same game he is a new pitcher. Its still the same pitcher and the same game so the fourth visit is his last one for that game. How can it be any other way?

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by whitecane12

Are you saying that on the fourth visit the pitcher can then be moved to another position and then return later as a new pitcher and is then entitled to another four visits in that same game before being removed again...and again...? Tell me it ain't so!

Do you realize the chaos that would create? Rule 8.06 (b) of the Little League rules states, "A manager or coach may come out three times in one game to visit with the pitcher, but the fourth time out, the pitcher must be removed as a pitcher."

No where does it state that if that same pitcher is brought back in the same game he is a new pitcher. Its still the same pitcher and the same game so the fourth visit is his last one for that game. How can it be any other way?

Nowhere does it say in the rule you quoted, 8.06, that the pitcher may not return as pitcher. It says must be removed. That doesn't mean he cannot come back and pitch if he is the starting pitcher and moved to another position. In your situation, I don't believe a visit is charged because the pitcher was being replaced. The new pitcher now has 3 visits, and on the fourth he too must be removed.

And I believe Rich is right in saying he is considered to be a new pitcher, and is entitled his 3 visits (2 in one inning) before he must be removed again. But as you probably know, he can only come back once per inning. And you can only allow 2 visits per inning to a pitcher. Rule 8.06 in it's first sentence states, "this rule, which applies to EACH pitcher who enters the game."

See 3.03(c)



[Edited by thumpferee on Jul 3rd, 2003 at 05:16 AM]

[whitecane12]

Originally posted by thumpferee
[/B]

"this rule, which applies to EACH pitcher who enters the game."

See 3.03(c)
[Edited by thumpferee on Jul 3rd, 2003 at 05:16 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't agree, however, once a pitcher moves to another position that once he comes back to the mound he is considered to be entering the game again. He's already in the game. The term, "entering the game" is used to describe a player coming into the game from the bench who has not been in the game previously. An example of that distinction is the use of a Special Pinch Runner -- No Entry who must be a player who has not previously entered the game, meaning he or she hasn't appeared as a batter or fielder.

So far I still maintain the rule regarding visits to a pitcher is the total accumulation of visits in one game from the time that pitcher first enters the game.

[Lonewolf986]

Dear Geebus!!!! New pitcher? Uh, weren't mound trips limits created to stop delays in the game? I mean, seriously, LL and PONY Games arent even that long, so if the kid gets pulled after his 4th visit, then he needs to go. In PONY baseball in Richmond, we pull them after the THIRD Trip in a game. If they are visited twice in the same inning, they go too.

But what this thread is debating is whether or not a kid gets 7 visits total? Thats just crazy. Im sorry, but I do not think the rules provide for that.

[jicecone]

"I don't agree, however, once a pitcher moves to another position that once he comes back to the mound he is considered to be entering the game again. He's already in the game. The term, "entering the game" is used to describe a player coming into the game from the bench who has not been in the game previously. An example of that distinction is the use of a Special Pinch Runner -- No Entry who must be a player who has not previously entered the game, meaning he or she hasn't appeared as a batter or fielder.

So far I still maintain the rule regarding visits to a pitcher is the total accumulation of visits in one game from the time that pitcher first enters the game."

The pitcher that moves to another position is no longer the PITCHER, he/she is a fielder. The comparison you used for "Special Pinch Runner", is a requirement for the "Special Pinch Runner" only. There is nowhere the rules support that as definition of players in and out of the game. In fact I didn't see a definition at all "for entering a game".

What would you call a DH? In the game, out of the game? I think this is more semantics than anything else.

I agree LL Rules do not clearly cover this, (at least I couldn't find it) however, I tend to believe that because it says "each pitcher" which shows distinction which could suggect that the player about to pitch is a new pitcher.

Yes, that could mean that the visits to the mound could be numerous if mutiple moves are made however, unless there is a rule the contradicts this I would have to go with it.

Just my opinion.