courtesy runner

[MRD]

In the top of 2nd #12 courtesy runs for #8 catcher. In bottom of 4th #8 becomes the pitcher. In top of 5th #8 gets on base and #12 courtesy runs for him again. imo illegal sub. your thoughts... Mike

[mbyron]

Correct. CR#2: the same player may not be a CR for both positions (F1 and F2) in one game.

Rather than enforce the penalty for illegal substitution, I would disallow #12 from running for the pitcher.

[Justme561]

Originally Posted by MRD

In the top of 2nd #12 courtesy runs for #8 catcher. In bottom of 4th #8 becomes the pitcher. In top of 5th #8 gets on base and #12 courtesy runs for him again. imo illegal sub. your thoughts... Mike

NFHS rules.
Page 64 – Courtesy Runners
2. The same individual runner may not be used for both positions (pitcher and catcher) during the game.
7. A player who violates the courtesy-runner rule is considered to be an illegal substitute.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Correct. CR#2: the same player may not be a CR for both positions (F1 and F2) in one game.

Rather than enforce the penalty for illegal substitution, I would disallow #12 from running for the pitcher.

The coach could still run #12 as a PR and burn him.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MRD

In the top of 2nd #12 courtesy runs for #8 catcher. In bottom of 4th #8 becomes the pitcher. In top of 5th #8 gets on base and #12 courtesy runs for him again. imo illegal sub. your thoughts... Mike

It's part of our job to prevent this if possible before it happens.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It's part of our job to prevent this if possible before it happens.

I agree in preventing it if possible. Would you offer the coach the legal option of pinch running instead or does that go to far into helping a coach?

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I agree in preventing it if possible. Would you offer the coach the legal option of pinch running instead or does that go to far into helping a coach?

Only if he asks.

[Justme561]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I agree in preventing it if possible. Would you offer the coach the legal option of pinch running instead or does that go to far into helping a coach?

When the coach announced that #12 (CR for F2) was coming in to CR for F1 I would explain to him why he can't do that.

I had this happen this season and the opposing coach got upset because I was "coaching" the other coach. I explained to him that I couldn't take the change knowing that it was illegal.

I would not advise the coach that he has the option to PR.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I agree in preventing it if possible. Would you offer the coach the legal option of pinch running instead or does that go to far into helping a coach?

I would not offer the coach options. To an opposing coach that might look like, "I understand what you're trying to do, so here, let me help you accomplish it."

Umpires with shiny fresh rules knowledge are often eager to show it off and get into trouble in situations like this.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Justme561

I had this happen this season and the opposing coach got upset because I was "coaching" the other coach. I explained to him that I couldn't take the change knowing that it was illegal.

Exactly right. The opposing coach wanted you to give the other coach rope to hang himself, but we have to nip this in the bud when we see it.

On the other hand, if you don't catch it and the coach puts in an illegal sub, the responsibility lies with him. Don't let him talk you out of the penalty for illegal sub because "you should have prevented it!"

Kinda like letting that 6th player on the floor in basketball. Try hard to prevent it, enforce the rule if discovered.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I agree in preventing it if possible. Would you offer the coach the legal option of pinch running instead or does that go to far into helping a coach?

I'd tell him the rule about courtesy runners. Not our job to suggest strategies to a coach.

[CT1]

"Coach, he runs for the *position*, not the player."

[umpjim]

Coach: "12 FOR 8 CR". Me: OK, 12 is out and restricted to the dugout.
Jim Evans: "That is not a practical way to umpire."

I'm conflicted about not allowing an illegal sub which aids a coach and further aid such as can I do this or you could do this. It's a slippery slope.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Coach: "12 FOR 8 CR". Me: OK, 12 is out and restricted to the dugout.
Jim Evans: "That is not a practical way to umpire."

I'm conflicted about not allowing an illegal sub which aids a coach and further aid such as can I do this or you could do this. It's a slippery slope.

You're not doing it to aid a coach. You're doing it to enforce the rules, and to keep a kid in the game despite his coach not knowing the rules.

Same as keeping a kid with an illegal bat from entering the batters box, if you see it first. If not, enforce the rule.

It's preventive officiating, and it's the right thing to do.

[Steven Tyler]

I would never intentionally allow a coach put in an illegal substitute in on offense. Defense would be harder to control.

There have been an occasion or two when I've had to help the coach with the line-up with re-entry through.

At the sub-varsity level, I've bent the rule a couple of times, also. At the time it was right to do. Ask if you want to know what I did?