Obstruction or just baseball?

[David B]

This must be the year for crazy plays for my games -

Quick question about two plays at plate ...

1) Base hit to center and R2 comes to plate. Throw moves F2 toward incoming runner and R2 tries to go head first but runs into moving catcher. It is not malicious, but coach asks about a slide and I told him F2 moved into his path - nothing malicious we keep the out no ejection.

2) Bases loaded and BR hits roller to F1. Should be easy DP, but F1 throws it low and F2 drops to knees on top of the plate and drops the ball. R3 is only two steps from home thinking he's out. Seeing the ball loose, R3 tries for the plate making a head first attempt and falls over F2 who is on the ground scrambling for the ball. R3 misses the plate and has to scramble back to home just as F1 gets the ball and tries to tag him out. I made the call of safe, coach asks about a slide and I told him nothing malicious, just baseball etc.,

In retrospect I probably could have called him out but the ball is loose and then I thought about obstruction from F2 since he was blocking the plate without the ball.

Anyway, just looking for some perspective.

Thanks
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

Both plays sound like baseball to me. Play on.

[rbmartin]

Under what rule set was this game being played (OBR, FED, LL)?
I don't do Little League, but if I'm not mistaken, head first slides while advancing are prohibited there. Other than that, it looks like "just baseball".

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by David B

This must be the year for crazy plays for my games -

Quick question about two plays at plate ...

1) Base hit to center and R2 comes to plate. Throw moves F2 toward incoming runner and R2 tries to go head first but runs into moving catcher. It is not malicious, but coach asks about a slide and I told him F2 moved into his path - nothing malicious we keep the out no ejection.

2) Bases loaded and BR hits roller to F1. Should be easy DP, but F1 throws it low and F2 drops to knees on top of the plate and drops the ball. R3 is only two steps from home thinking he's out. Seeing the ball loose, R3 tries for the plate making a head first attempt and falls over F2 who is on the ground scrambling for the ball. R3 misses the plate and has to scramble back to home just as F1 gets the ball and tries to tag him out. I made the call of safe, coach asks about a slide and I told him nothing malicious, just baseball etc.,

In retrospect I probably could have called him out but the ball is loose and then I thought about obstruction from F2 since he was blocking the plate without the ball.

Anyway, just looking for some perspective.

Thanks
David

On the surface they seem like baseball to me also however, in 1. (NFHS) I guess it could be one of those HTBT situations. Did F2 have the ball when he moved into the way of the runner? And did he deny access to the plate? Sometimes there is such a fine line there that it is not always obvious. NCAA and OBR it is just baseball.

[mbyron]

It's hard to be sure without seeing them, but it sounds to me as if both plays are OBS under FED rules (2.22.1 C, 8.3.2 C). Blocking access to the base without the ball is OBS, regardless of whether (1) the throw moves F2 into the runner's path (8.3.2 K), or (2) the runner pulls up, thinking he's going to be tagged (the OBS gives the defense an unfair advantage here).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by David B

This must be the year for crazy plays for my games -

Quick question about two plays at plate ...

1) Base hit to center and R2 comes to plate. Throw moves F2 toward incoming runner and R2 tries to go head first but runs into moving catcher. It is not malicious, but coach asks about a slide and I told him F2 moved into his path - nothing malicious we keep the out no ejection.

2) Bases loaded and BR hits roller to F1. Should be easy DP, but F1 throws it low and F2 drops to knees on top of the plate and drops the ball. R3 is only two steps from home thinking he's out. Seeing the ball loose, R3 tries for the plate making a head first attempt and falls over F2 who is on the ground scrambling for the ball. R3 misses the plate and has to scramble back to home just as F1 gets the ball and tries to tag him out. I made the call of safe, coach asks about a slide and I told him nothing malicious, just baseball etc.,

In retrospect I probably could have called him out but the ball is loose and then I thought about obstruction from F2 since he was blocking the plate without the ball.

Anyway, just looking for some perspective.

Thanks
David

Nothing wrong with your comments to defense about the slides. I do have OBS (if it ends up mattering) on both plays though.

[Welpe]

In Fed, I'd have obstruction for both. A fielder must have possession of the ball in order to block the base.

In OBR, I'd have nothing for either play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

In Fed, I'd have obstruction for both. A fielder must have possession of the ball in order to block the base.

In OBR, I'd have nothing for either play.

Agreed.

[rbmartin]

Since the runner scored eventually, I'd probably let this play go under any rule set. If it was an NFHS game, and he was eventually tagged out in a scenario decribed in situation 2, I'd have obstruction. As Welpe pointed out, you MUST have the ball if you're in the runners way.

By no means under any rule set do you reward the defense for screwing up the play (except for a malicious contact situation).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Since the runner scored eventually, I'd probably let this play go under any rule set. If it was an NFHS game, and he was eventually tagged out in a scenario decribed in situation 2, I'd have obstruction. As Welpe pointed out, you MUST have the ball if you're in the runners way.

By no means under any rule set do you reward the defense for screwing up the play (except for a malicious contact situation).

For the record, you have obstruction when you have obstruction... you don't wait to see what happens... in a case like THIS play, the OBS is nearly instantaneously followed by a safe call (assuming he scored anyway), but for forms sake (and some TWP I don't want to get into here), call it anyway and then when they score, you don't have to DO anything with it.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

....but for forms sake ..... call it anyway and then when they score, you don't have to DO anything with it.

Probably good advice...thanks.

[David B]

Thanks for the perspective. It was NFHS game.

In re-reading my original post I didn't put in play 1 that F2 caught the ball just as the runner began his slide it was bang bang so we did not rule obstruction. Probably should have.

I think the coach wanted the ejection more than anything.

We did rule obstruction on the 2nd play.

Thanks for the help

David

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh FED rules...good to know.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by David B

Thanks for the perspective. It was NFHS game.

In re-reading my original post I didn't put in play 1 that F2 caught the ball just as the runner began his slide it was bang bang so we did not rule obstruction. Probably should have.
David

Perhaps. It's much more HTBT at this point and that's why they pay us the big bucks.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Perhaps. It's much more HTBT at this point and that's why they pay us the big bucks.

You know the best thing is that when you have a few plays like this and have some time to think it through, it really prepares you for the next time its going to happen.

We all know that we can call game after game and never have some of these type of plays and then when it happens you just have to officiate.

Same with plays like batters obstruction or the interference at 2nd base by R1 etc.,

Thanks
David