Does it behoove the B/R...?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

Both Fed and OBR.

Legal appeals can be made after the third out has been made that supersede the third out. In the OP, the defense claims that if the appeal is made at 1st base, the run does not score. Is it valid though?

How many runs haves scored in 59,000+ MLB games and over a million FED games when a batter failed to reach first base? My estimate is zero. Compare that to the number of runs that count as a result of scoring before a successful tagout is applied. I would say the defense has a valid argument.

Usually, BR reaches base successfully before he is tagged out trying to extend his progress while a play is being made on someone else. Not here in our OP. Usually the BR is thrown out at 1B before a runner is tagged on the baseline. Not here in our post. Neither happened in this OP. I can understand why the defense would appeal. Why am I bailing out a runner who failed to reach his base prior to being put out at first base, albeit, after the 3rd out?

Find a rule that allows for an appeal because a runner didn't reach a base, live or dead, 0, 1, 2, or 3 out.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

I wouldn't allow an appeal with 0, 1, or 2 outs. BR would be called out as part of a DP or inning ending DP.
I would not allow him to walk off the field during live action either.
A) Explain why I should allow BR to walk off on the final play of the game
B) Explain why I should deny the defense the opportunity to appeal with 3 outs.
C) Explain why I should deny an official protest made by the coach.
Please enlighten me about a base never reached and how it affects the play.
I don't have a clue how to use it to justify a scorned run.
Apply your definition of a fielder's choice here.

If you weren't a troll that destroyed an otherwise useful thread, you'd know the answer to B is the same as the answer to the question I asked you.

There is no rule that allows an appeal in this case.

[MD Longhorn]

I thought this horse died on Friday.

This is absurd. Once the 3rd out of the inning is made, no other action by the offense matters. None. No other action by the defense matters except as described by the rulebook - which includes ONLY an appeal of a transgression done by the offense BEFORE that 3rd out was made.

After the 3rd out - whether batter-runner eventually reaches first base or not is entirely immaterial. No 4th out is available here EXCEPT on an appeal. In fact, SA, if your logic holds any water, then even if BR DOES continue to first after the 3rd out is made, it does not matter - the play was over and BR was not at 1st when the 3rd out was made.

THERE IS NO RULE that allows further play to be made regarding action that happens after the 3rd out --- to reiterate, the ONLY thing the defense can do is appeal regarding something that happened BEFORE that 3rd out was made.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by SAump

Look up game ending hit in the NCAA manual rule 10, section 7, then tell me this game is over.
Does it apply to FED and OBR?
So the defense cannot appeal because there is no rule. WTF?

Remember when I asked this, "You've shown that the rules provide that, for a game ending situation in which the home team takes the lead in their final at bat, the batter (and other forced runners their advance--Merkle) must touch first base. Why do you find it appropriate to extrapolate the game ending criteria to three outs?"

You don't like Wendelstedt in conjunction with 7.10(d) and it is you who is trying to make up up the rule to allow this appeal. You don't like it and for whatever reason it's not logical to you (oh, I asked for your logic). Funny that Carl Childress was mentioned earlier. He used to say to people who didn't think the rules were fair and wouldn't accept them, "What's fair about four balls and only three strikes?"

Someone, please help me get SAump out of my head.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SAump

59,000+ MLB games?

Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)

Sounds about right of course I don't remember much about baseball prior to that year.

SA, BOO and illegal bats are covered in a different section. Out of context it looks incomplete but we weren't talking about illegal bats, BOO or even Tribbles.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by SAump

My apologies for being so math challenged! I googled or yahooed how many games have been played in MLB. I knew I should not have done it. One reply was over 597,000 and another was over 300-something thousand. Then I remembered what the professor did wrong and thought I was safe with 59,000plus.

That doesn't negate the fact that Pre-1940 WWII, to 1964, to 1988, to 2012; not one run, ZERO MLB people have scored on a succesful defensive time-play at first base. Real umpires just won't allow it.

How many times could it have happened? That would be my question.

The obvious play is on the batter runner at 1B, that's why we probably haven't seen it very often.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)

Well... forgot to divide by 2... so ... 1960 or so.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by SAump

Why am I bailing out a runner who failed to reach his base prior to being put out at first base, albeit, after the 3rd out?

Why are you bailing out the fielder who chose to make the wrong play?

[MD Longhorn]

I'm not bailing anyone out nor failing to bail anyone out - that's not our job. The rulebook tells us what to do here, and it's clear that only appeals are allowed after a 3rd out; it's equally clear to any umpire who's done this for more than 4 days that merely throwing a ball to 1st base before BR gets there is NOT an appeal play.

This is WAY easier than you're making it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I remember this topic about 10 years ago but I don't remember the consensus.

R2, R3, two outs. Ground ball to F5. R3 crosses home. F5 tags out R2. B/R discontinues to first. Can the defense appeal at first for a "fourth" out? In other words, does it behoove the offense for the B/R to continue to first after the third out?

This thread has become too long for me to keep track of where it stands. But per NFHS Rules: No Fourth Out can be had in this situation.

R2-39 says: "Time at bat is the period beginning when a batter first enters the batter's box and continuing until he is put out or becomes a runner. A batter is not charged in the records with a time at bat when he makes a *sacrifice hit, is hit by a pitched ball, is awarded a base on balls, is replaced before being charged with two strikes, is replaced after being charged with two strikes and the *substitute does not strike out, or when he advances to first base because of obstruction by a fielder."

R2-S7-A3: "A batter-runner is a player who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends."

This means that the B/R was forced to run to 1B, his At-Bat ended with the 3rd out because the 3rd out also ends playing action for the inning; and since the inning ended before the B/R aquired 1B, no Base Running Infraction could have happened.

This is the same ruling the Wendelstedt gives for MLB Rules.

MTD, Sr.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I remember this topic about 10 years ago but I don't remember the consensus.

R2, R3, two outs. Ground ball to F5. R3 crosses home. F5 tags out R2. B/R discontinues to first. Can the defense appeal at first for a "fourth" out? In other words, does it behoove the offense for the B/R to continue to first after the third out?

I remember that; and no it doesn't. Score the run

[SAump]

Which came first, the winning run or the last out? See OBR 4.11.

The defense wins if the offense fails to score. After reading 4.11a, the OP half-inning ended the game the moment the defense obtained the legal third out.

The offense wins if it scores before three are successfully put out. After reading 4.11b, the OP half-inning ended the game the moment the offense scored a legal run.

This is another situation when calling it both ways ( run and out) is impossible. After reading 4.11c, it is impossible to score the winning run and obtain the third out at exactly the same time. Only one may occur.

But if you continue to make up the rules, I got nothing else to say, but toodles.