Does it behoove the B/R...?

Lapopez · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:39pm

I remember this topic about 10 years ago but I don't remember the consensus.

R2, R3, two outs. Ground ball to F5. R3 crosses home. F5 tags out R2. B/R discontinues to first. Can the defense appeal at first for a "fourth" out? In other words, does it behoove the offense for the B/R to continue to first after the third out?

mbyron · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:20pm

Appeal what?

dash_riprock · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I remember this topic about 10 years ago but I don't remember the consensus.

R2, R3, two outs. Ground ball to F5. R3 crosses home. F5 tags out R2. B/R discontinues to first. Can the defense appeal at first for a "fourth" out? In other words, does it behoove the offense for the B/R to continue to first after the third out?

No, but it behooves the defense to throw the B/R out at 1st instead of tagging R2.

Lapopez · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No, but it behooves the defense to throw the B/R out at 1st instead of tagging R2.

Yes, but what I am asking is if the defense is entitled to, and would it be upheld if *after* tagging R2, appealed that the B/R never touched first base.

dash_riprock · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 19, 2012, 10:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Yes, but what I am asking is if the defense is entitled to, and would it be upheld if *after* tagging R2, appealed that the B/R never touched first base.

I don't think so. It's not a missed base. But it's an interesting question.

rbmartin · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I don't think so. It's not a missed base. But it's an interesting question.

Certainly not a missed base. You have to advance past a base to miss it. Wouldn't this actually be abandonment.

Rich Ives · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Certainly not a missed base. You have to advance past a base to miss it. Wouldn't this actually be abandonment.

You have to reach first before you can abandon.

MD Longhorn · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Yes, but what I am asking is if the defense is entitled to, and would it be upheld if *after* tagging R2, appealed that the B/R never touched first base.

There is such a thing as a fourth out appeal, but I do not believe it applies here... you can't rule this a missed base - BR didn't miss it - he never got there. The 4th out appeal is just that - an appeal. Throwing the runner out at 1st is not an appeal.

mbyron · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There is such a thing as a fourth out appeal, but I do not believe it applies here... you can't rule this a missed base - BR didn't miss it - he never got there. The 4th out appeal is just that - an appeal. Throwing the runner out at 1st is not an appeal.

Exactly right. A 4th out appeal must be a proper appeal: a retouch or missed base appeal. The BR is under no obligation to touch 1B after the 3rd out has been recorded, so this is not a missed base. No appeal should be upheld here.

Welpe · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:16am

I believe J/R used to say this was a valid appeal. Per the BRD, it is in Fed. The official Wendelstedt interpretation is that it is not.

In Fed I'd likely not grant the appeal since the interpretation the BRD citation is based upon is rather obscure and defies logic.

Welpe · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 22, 2012, 09:40pm

His question has been answered affirmatively, you just don't seem to like the answer.

I'm sensing a new rising fast ball thread is in the works here.

celebur · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump

Has the run scored? Date time opponents please.

According to OBR, yes it has scored:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBR

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches firstbase; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Lapopez · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:46pm

Can someone clue me in if SAump is being serious?

professor · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:36am

If a third out in an inning created a dead ball situation, there would be no fourth out situations. However since there are fourth out situatons, which are addressed in the baseball rules (7.10 (d), the ball is not dead, and subsequent plays may be made via appeal. This is a force out situation, and since appealed, and as we all know, no runs can be scored when a force out is the last out of an inning.

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by professor

If a third out in an inning created a dead ball situation, there would be no fourth out situations. However since there are fourth out situatons, which are addressed in the baseball rules, the ball is not dead, and subsequent plays may be made via appeal. This is a force out situation, and since appealed, and as we all know, no runs can be scored when a force out is the last out of an inning.

The play on a batter/runner is never a force, by definition. Who's forcing him to run to first base?