Balk Warning

[IHSAIllini]

Something I've always been dying to ask other umpires about. I don't know how many of you use house rules that include a balk warning component, but I'll fill you in as best I can. For the Bronco and Pony kids (11-12 and 13-14) there are balk warnings. For the 11-12s it's a warning per pitcher, for 13-14s it's a warning per team. Now, of course you can't call balks without a runner on base. Or, I've been led to believe this without actually looking up the section in the FED rulebook...but if I'm wrong someone correct me right away.

(Oh great, IHSA is gonna love this, I just passed my Part 1 rules test and I'm already making them look bad for patching me...heh).

So I guess my question is, even though you can't call balks without runners on base, presuming I'm right of course, how would you feel about wasting the warnings without runners? My rationale is that because it's house ball, the purpose is to teach the kids, and it's easier for them to make the adjustment before they're under pressure with runners on base.

What does everyone think?

[GarthB]

Here's how it works in PONY around here:

At the plate conference -

Coach: Are you going to warn us about balks?

Me: Yep. Here's the warning: We're calling balks.

[chris s]

Originally posted by IHSAIllini
Something I've always been dying to ask other umpires about. I don't know how many of you use house rules that include a balk warning component, but I'll fill you in as best I can. For the Bronco and Pony kids (11-12 and 13-14) there are balk warnings. For the 11-12s it's a warning per pitcher, for 13-14s it's a warning per team. Now, of course you can't call balks without a runner on base. Or, I've been led to believe this without actually looking up the section in the FED rulebook...but if I'm wrong someone correct me right away.

(Oh great, IHSA is gonna love this, I just passed my Part 1 rules test and I'm already making them look bad for patching me...heh).

So I guess my question is, even though you can't call balks without runners on base, presuming I'm right of course, how would you feel about wasting the warnings without runners? My rationale is that because it's house ball, the purpose is to teach the kids, and it's easier for them to make the adjustment before they're under pressure with runners on base.

What does everyone think?

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lets get something clarified first.. A Balk is an illegal action by the F1 to decieve a runner. NO runners, NO BALK!!!! PONY BB uses OBR, toss the FED book. F1 is in wind-up OR set,fails to deliver...let it go.PLEASE read the shaded parts

[IHSAIllini]

To clarify, the class of 13-14 baseball is called 'Pony' around here, that's why I didn't capitalize it. FED are the rules we play under - no exceptions. And you still didn't answer the question - I didn't ask about the balk rule, I asked about an interpretation of an unclear house rule. I tend to call warnings simply because of the educational nature of the league. There is no clear-cut right or wrong answer on this according to the rule book, since FED is obviously silent on warnings, and anything not covered in house (and this certainly isn't) goes to FED rules.

[GarthB]

You play FED rules in a PONY league? Does PONY know about this?

What do these poor kids do at tournament time?

[IHSAIllini]

Okay, since evidently there is a great deal of confusion as to why we use the rules we do, I'll explain as best I can about how the structure of our organization is set up (seeing as how me saying we use FED rules evidently isn't good enough.)

House league, we are managed by an independent non-profit with a nonetheless meaty budget that aside from House rules, plays under FED rules. If memory serves me correctly, we went to FED last year. The BoD made the decision, not for any particular reason that I can recall, but it happened. We certainly didn't use OBR before that...maybe if I dig up an '01 rule book I can tell you precisely what we were using.

At tournament time, the tournament specifies what rules we're playing under. Usually it's FED - and that goes double for the older kids, because they're not too far off from being under FED jurisdiction anyways.

*I might add that because I do high school as well, there's no reason to toss the FED book.

*Hey, look at that! Well, went back and found the 2001 rule book, and sure enough, we were using OBR. I also found the memo to umpires from the BoD regarding the switch. Their rationale was to prepare kids for high school ball. What can I say? ::shrugs::

[Edited by IHSAIllini on Jun 1st, 2003 at 09:23 PM]

[GarthB]

I would assume then that when your PONY teams travel outside your area for tournaments they are in for a few surprises.

[IHSAIllini]

Haven't heard too many complaints. And I typically hear all the complaints...but our players are pretty well-read, to say nothing of the coaches (who, like most, know none of the rules) and either evidently understand the difference between FED and OBR, or it just doesn't come up. Probably the latter.

Out of curiosity, speaking as someone who's never had time to read the entire rulebook cover to cover, what are the major differences between FED and OBR, in a nutshell? I caught the verbal interference one earlier..

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by IHSAIllini
Out of curiosity, speaking as someone who's never had time to read the entire rulebook cover to cover, what are the major differences between FED and OBR, in a nutshell? I caught the verbal interference one earlier..

Apparently, you've barely had the time to even open it up -- there's a summary chart right in the FED rule book. That's a good place to start.

[IHSAIllini]

I could do without the snide remarks.

I asked a valid question and would have liked a simple "In the FED rulebook, they list the major differences." For the record, I am well aware of the chart's existence, I just didn't process that they were differences between OBR because naturally I assumed that the MLB rules were different, as FED specifies differences with pro ball. It seems that MLB uses OBR, though.

Y'all seem awful hostile to someone trying to learn a little more about the rules so I can be a better umpire. Sorry I can't cite the rules from memory, if I umpired as my job I'd probably be able to.

[woolnojg]

IHS -
No runners, no balk, no balk warning.
If the pitcher is doing something that would be a balk, tell the coach between innings. He can fix it or not. Then it is his problem, not yours.
Apparently, some here will not understand the difference between PONY, Pony, and pony ball.

[David B]

Originally posted by IHSAIllini
I could do without the snide remarks.


Y'all seem awful hostile to someone trying to learn a little more about the rules so I can be a better umpire. Sorry I can't cite the rules from memory, if I umpired as my job I'd probably be able to.

That's true, but also part of being a good umpire is doing your homework. This board is a great way to learn and ask specific questions, but there are many many differences in FED and OBR.

Getting a copy of the BRD (Baseball Rule Differences by Carl Childress) is a good start. It will help you to see in black and white many of the differences.

As far as your rules, we do a lot of the same. Most of our leagues use FED all the time.

FED is mostly safety concious so if you are doing FED rules then you should have no problem playing a league or tourney that uses OBR. The problem is guys that might use OBR and then come to a FED tourney.

Balks, call them all. That's the way the kids learn. He can do a lot of things with no runners that might be a balk with runners on. Let that be your warning.

But make sure you know what the balk rules are also. Study study, study.

Rule 6 in the FED book, I would know it and then if you're using FED you also need to look at TOP (time of pitch) in Rule 2 since this is different etc.,

Thanks
David

[chris s]

Originally posted by IHSAIllini
Okay, since evidently there is a great deal of confusion as to why we use the rules we do, I'll explain as best I can about how the structure of our organization is set up (seeing as how me saying we use FED rules evidently isn't good enough.)
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I would love to see PONY use NFHS rules for the 13-14's. The screwed up "shoulder-turn" is the biggest reason! Good coaches want the cheap base, dumb ones have no clue, I would rather see kids that understand the "step up" to an advancement to better ball.

Sorry if I did not read your mind and assume PONY meant FED...Learn and live........

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



House league, we are managed by an independent non-profit with a nonetheless meaty budget that aside from House rules, plays under FED rules. If memory serves me correctly, we went to FED last year. The BoD made the decision, not for any particular reason that I can recall, but it happened. We certainly didn't use OBR before that...maybe if I dig up an '01 rule book I can tell you precisely what we were using.

At tournament time, the tournament specifies what rules we're playing under. Usually it's FED - and that goes double for the older kids, because they're not too far off from being under FED jurisdiction anyways.

*I might add that because I do high school as well, there's no reason to toss the FED book.

*Hey, look at that! Well, went back and found the 2001 rule book, and sure enough, we were using OBR. I also found the memo to umpires from the BoD regarding the switch. Their rationale was to prepare kids for high school ball. What can I say? ::shrugs::

[Edited by IHSAIllini on Jun 1st, 2003 at 09:23 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
I would assume then that when your PONY teams travel outside your area for tournaments they are in for a few surprises.

Good Lord, baseball is baseball. The differences are not like NF Football rules as compared to NCAA Football Rules, which have about 200 rules differences between them. Even in basketball the rules are much more difficult to grasp (and it is not hard, let me tell you) between the HS, college and pro ranks. Baseball is baseball and it is still about safes/outs, balls and strikes. Of course their are differences that are worth noting, but it is not like there is a chasm of differences that does not make it doable for umpires, coaches and kids to adjust to. And as youth players get older, they have to adjust to the new rules as they move from LL to HS ball.

Also in Illinois, it is not uncommon for the Summer or Spring Leagues that are not HS ball to use NF Rules. Mainly because the umpires the work those games are most of the time NF Umpires. When I did LL Majors (whatever the level the kids that are of HS age play) in my home town, we went strictly under NF Rules. And my understanding is that OBR is suppose to be used in "sactioned" events. Baseball is not a big sport in this state as it is in other parts of the country, that might contribute for the focus on the rules. This is primarily a basketball state and it is much more common to see kids play in summer basketball than play baseball. Just the way it is.

Peace

[GarthB]

"Good Lord, baseball is baseball.

Ah, Mr. Rut. You never disappoint.

The differences between FED and PONY are many and significant.

What is and isn't legal equipment, especially in the case of bats, is different. The pitching rules are different - both in regulations on the mechaincs and pitching time, some re-entry opportunities are different, the concept of a legal slide is different, there is no force play slide rule in PONY, the obstruction rule is different, some rules on runners are different........


I could go on, but looking at your past history, I doubt it would be useful.