BR Misses 1st / Beats throw mechanic

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Hugo, do you think that a written interpretation from the chairman of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committe would sway them?

Kyle McNeely resides in my state and recently sent a message to our state's umpires regarding the 2012 baseball season. In it, he noted that he was always available via email if anyone had any questions regarding baseball in our state.

I decided to take him up on that!

In an email, I posed this play to him and asked what the FED ruling would be. This was his response:

If a throw is made, and the BR beat it, the umpire is to signal "safe." With the appeal now in our rulebook, the defense must intentionally appeal the missed base. If they do so before the BRgets back to first base, the umpire would now rule "out." We have two distinct situations here. The play, which the BR beat, and the appeal that the defense must make. I think we have that as an AR or casebook play. Think of it this way, on the play itself, the BR beat the throw, he is safe. He did not touch the base and that is now on the defense to appeal. I hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime. Kyle

Maybe that will sway them!

You are officially ..DA MAN

Thanks

[David B]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Rich, OZZIE and everyone else.

Thanks for confirming the concept.

I don't know if these guys will ever get it coming from me.


I've tried the "missed base requires an appeal" approach, but they were more concerned with "fielder tags the base before the BR touches the base".
I'm sure you've met them.

I sent them the MLB wording but they are saying NFHS is different.
I was hoping I could find something NFHS has written for their benefit.
My last suggestion was to have the assignor (YES, that is one of the people who wants to call the out immediately when F3 catches the ball with his foot on the base) write the state rules interpreter.....


Not much more I can do - I'm just a softball umpire,

Thanks again for your answers.

It is in FED. Just tell them to go back to early 2000's when there was an interpretation or something like that in the books. It has since been removed. Of course guys like that probably don't really have an interest in finding the answer, just asking the questions ....

Thanks
David

[MikeStrybel]

This is one of those plays that can really make us look silly even though we are on top of it. Think about it, the BR races down the line, the throw comes in and you have great positioning to see it all unfold. The BR crosses the base a step ahead of the throw. You immediately signal safe and the defense comes unglued, not to mention the bench and stands start in with the "No way's". They are hollering that the guy missed the base and the first baseman turns to go after the BR, now heading back to the base at his coach's direction. The first baseman touches BR with the ball and then holds it up to show you and your partner(s). You then signal out. You did your job and look pretty awful to the aformentioned. Your partner(s) will hopefully know better and offer up a cold one when the time is right. After that, you'll need it.

I've never had to make this call and hope the new year continues the trend. Happy holidays to all.

[kylejt]

There are many ways to call SAFE. On a missed bag, close one, you don't need to go with the loud bark, followed by a sharp mechanic, like if you would if he actually hit the bag. Just a gentle signal (don't hold it, though). Let them figure it out.

As far as aquiring the bag, I've been taught it's when when the trailing foot crossed the leading edge of the bag. Is that universal, or is it different in different flavors of ball?

[dash_riprock]

My eyes aren't good enough to tell if the trailing foot has passed the leading edge of the bag. The runner has to pass the base (acquiring it) before the ball gets there. If I am going to call him safe on the miss, it's going to look like he easily beat the throw. Otherwise, I'm banging him.

[HugoTafurst]

I sent my friends a copy of Bretman's response from Kyle McNeely.
The response was positive and I was thanked for getting the information and my perseverence.



The world is good.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by kylejt

.....
As far as aquiring the bag, I've been taught it's when when the trailing foot crossed the leading edge of the bag. Is that universal, or is it different in different flavors of ball?

Kyle, aquiring the base is simply a matter of did the runner beat the ball. Is his body beyond the base when the ball is caught. If his front foot is on the ground beyond the bag, his trailing foot may very well not have crossed the leading edge. Did he "beat" the throw in this instance? IMHO, yes he did. I don't belive you can simply use his trailing foot and or if his body is necessarly beyond F3. Especially if F3 is receiving the ball from the 3b line area where he is stretching for the ball. Good timing and better positioning are a must on this type of play. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Kyle, aquiring the base is simply a matter of did the runner beat the ball. Is his body beyond the base when the ball is caught. If his front foot is on the ground beyond the bag, his trailing foot may very well not have crossed the leading edge. Did he "beat" the throw in this instance? IMHO, yes he did. I don't belive you can simply use his trailing foot and or if his body is necessarly beyond F3. Especially if F3 is receiving the ball from the 3b line area where he is stretching for the ball. Good timing and better positioning are a must on this type of play. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.

Using the trailing foot is not something I came up with. I just don't recall what ruleset, or interpretation it came from. It is out there, though.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Kyle, aquiring the base is simply a matter of did the runner beat the ball. Is his body beyond the base when the ball is caught. If his front foot is on the ground beyond the bag, his trailing foot may very well not have crossed the leading edge. Did he "beat" the throw in this instance? IMHO, yes he did. I don't belive you can simply use his trailing foot and or if his body is necessarly beyond F3. Especially if F3 is receiving the ball from the 3b line area where he is stretching for the ball. Good timing and better positioning are a must on this type of play. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.

It is his trailing foot, but it's past the back edge of the base, not the leading edge of the base.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

My eyes aren't good enough to tell if the trailing foot has passed the leading edge of the bag. The runner has to pass the base (acquiring it) before the ball gets there. If I am going to call him safe on the miss, it's going to look like he easily beat the throw. Otherwise, I'm banging him.

You might be surprised. It's not as tough as you're making it.

[johnnyg08]

Here's what you don't want to do...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...72107&c_id=mlb

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Here's what you don't want to do...

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | NYY@TOR: Posada tags Escobar for the out in odd play - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Only 3 mistakes on one play.

[Forest Ump]

Only 3 mistakes on one play.

F3 sure looked like he was making an intentional appeal. He's looking right at the umpire holding his foot on the base. Perhaps he didn't verbalize it. If the umpire bangs him out on the appeal, it would sure look a lot cleaner.

On another note, can you imagine how the crowd would have erupted had he signaled safe and then out.

[dcmump]

Good discussion.

This relates to a situation observed in Little League, with a safety bag. No runners on, batter grounds to third, BR beats throw to first but steps on white part of bag. Throw arrives and 1B touches white part of bag.

Safety base rules require BR to touch orange part of bag on force attempt, so BR has missed the bag. However, based on this thread, he has acquired the bag and the simple touching of the bag by 1B would appear not to constitute a proper appeal.

BR was save when he passed 1B, and remains safe since no proper appeal.

[REFANDUMP]

Whenever I need that out, I just ask that player who's standing on the base with the ball "what's on the outside of a banana ?" Works every time !!!