dropped 3rd strike

[LMan]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

You and your partner's decision definitely put the defense at a tremedous disadvantage.

The catcher caught the short hop, 3rd strike, no problem, right? The lack of a call or ruling allowed the BR to reach 1st base. And you left it like that?

And then you and your partner got together and left it like that?

Fix it.

Oof. Great way to make a bad situation worse.

I'd say it was the lack of a throw that allowed the BR to reach 1B.

No rule basis to unring this bell IMO. Endure the rump-chewing from the defensive coach, and play on. Amazing that six years after Eddings, we still have trouble with this.

[UmpTTS43]

Any well coached F2 will apply a tag on the BR when there is a borderline catch/no catch. Regardless of how the umpires handled it, the players are responsible for knowing the situation.

[MD Longhorn]

Bad mechanics is not the same as correcting an incorrect call. The rule in the book that tells us to "fix" things applies to correcting incorrect calls - and has NOTHING to do with mechanics. If an umpire forgets to put his arm up for obstruction, it's still obstruction and we still rule accordingly. This whole situation is simply DMC. Play on.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Any well coached F2 will apply a tag on the BR when there is a borderline catch/no catch. Regardless of how the umpires handled it, the players are responsible for knowing the situation.

And to know this situation the umpire(s) have to indicate what it is.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And to know this situation the umpire(s) have to indicate what it is.

F2 knew he didn't field the pitch cleanly. Why does he need an umpire to tell him to tag the BR?


Tim.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

F2 knew he didn't field the pitch cleanly. Why does he need an umpire to tell him to tag the BR?


Tim.

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

Similar to the school of thought in some rule sets that says the OT and DT should "know" it is an IFF even if nobody on the crew calls it. And then there is confusion if it is a force or a tag if the runners attempt (or are forced) to advance.

Still, a catcher should assume a no catch call on anything borderline to avoid this kind of heartburn. Just as runners are cautioned to be aware that they should not immediately come off the bag if they are called out running on a 3-2 pitch that might be ruled ball four.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Similar to the school of thought in some rule sets that says the OT and DT should "know" it is an IFF

Tomato tomaahto... you say school of thought, I say rule. Same thing, right? This is not a "school of thought".

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know.

You mean you wouldn't tell your catcher, "Hey, if the pitch had even a remote chance that it hit the dirt first, just tag the batter to be safe." ????

You would think after the Josh Paul/Doug Eddings BS that it would be an automatic reaction from every competent catcher.

[Bob James]

Well and true said, SanDiegoSteve,

I suppose if we were coaches, we could say never roll a third strike to the mound until all parties involved acknowledge the third strike.

Since I'm still learning this craft, I also suppose that as umpires, the solution is to be emphatic and clear in our signals on any such third strike situation. The batter is either out on the caught third strike or he's a runner on the third strike not caught. It also helps to have a good pre-game understanding of how to treat these with your partner. But I have to confess, even after we cover this in pre-game, I can't recall ever looking at my partner to confirm. One of many areas I need to improve.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You mean you wouldn't tell your catcher, "Hey, if the pitch had even a remote chance that it hit the dirt first, just tag the batter to be safe." ????

You would think after the Josh Paul/Doug Eddings BS that it would be an automatic reaction from every competent catcher.

You tell them that, they usually do it. That's not the issue.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

Your ridiculous comment about balls and strikes aside, Rich..............

I'm not saying that the umpires didn't screw the pooch here with their poor mechanics, but I am saying that you can't put all the blame on them. Don't give me this nonsense about the batter either. Apparently he figured it out quickly enough to be standing on first, now didn't he. I played catcher from the age of 8, and continued into my mid thirties, Rich. Your comment that the catcher doesn't always know if he's fielded the ball cleanly is complete BS. He's the only one on the field, in many cases, that is 100% sure whether he fielded it cleanly or not. Time for your daily cheese dose......

Tim.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Your comment that the catcher doesn't always know if he's fielded the ball cleanly is complete BS. He's the only one on the field, in many cases, that is 100% sure whether he fielded it cleanly or not.
Tim.

So you're saying sometimes he doesn't know. Thanks. That was my point.


And the real question is what is the umpires opinion. It is the only one that matters, so the umpire should be obligated to let everyone know what it is.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

Hmmm. I see 11 year old's running on 3rd strikes anywhere near the ground. I see 11 year old catchers tagging batters even AFTER a catch, on anything close... Is this a skill somehow lost when one enrolls in college?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm. I see 11 year old's running on 3rd strikes anywhere near the ground. I see 11 year old catchers tagging batters even AFTER a catch, on anything close... Is this a skill somehow lost when one enrolls in college?

The outcome is dependent on the umpire's call, therefore there has to be a call. Really simple.

Why are so many denying that a call is necessary and/or that it's OK to not make one because the players should know? Why should they know the outcome of this call more than that of any other call?

Even Jim Evans reportedly said there has to be a verbal call because the two guys that need to know have their backs to the umpire. That's the basis of the revised mechanics - which someone should have been smart enough to realize was necessary in the first place.

It's amazing that so many folks realized the necessity of verbalizing it after the Eddings play, but let one of the bretheren goof it up and suddenly the onus is back on the players.