Demoting MLB umpires

[MikeStrybel]

John,
I was at a clinic with Tim Tschida shortly after the Clark's story broke. He was hesitant to say but a bit of prodding from the umpires present brought out allegations of memorabilia abuse. Clark had worked some high profile games and allegedly marketed baseballs from those games. It turned out that the balls were frauds. MLB discovered the activities. Apparently there was a history there and fellow umpires knew. He was prosecuted for it if I remember correctly. It's too bad, he was one of the first to wear glasses on the field and brought some levity to the game. The Dave Pallone firing was far more troubling. The Commish at the time was a homophobe who feared bad PR. Maybe you remember the umpire's name, I am on my Droid and won't look it up, who was fired for trying to unionize MLB crews. More bad PR.

Hope all is well. Saw your name attached to the Fall Ball D1 clinic next month. Dress warm.

Mike

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JJ

Wasn't Al Clark fired for shoplifting baseball cards? I seem to remember that story from years back....

JJ

Don't know about Al Clark, but Bob Engel's career ended when he was caught shoplifting about 4,000 baseball cards from a Target store.

[realistic]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The Dave Pallone firing was far more troubling. The Commish at the time was a homophobe who feared bad PR.

I would love to see the deceased Commish's rich son sue you for libel. Pallone was a scab and his days were numbered from the day he crossed the line.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by realistic

I would love to see the deceased Commish's rich son sue you for libel. Pallone was a scab and his days were numbered from the day he crossed the line.

Why the F would you want to see someone get sued for posting their opinion on a forum? That's pretty mean-spirited, don't you think? What, are you a trial attorney or something?

[realistic]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Why the F would you want to see someone get sued for posting their opinion on a forum? That's pretty mean-spirited, don't you think? What, are you a trial attorney or something?

Bart Giamatti was a good man. Mr Strybel didn't post his opinion(never mentioned it was), he committed libel unless he can prove that Giamatti was a homophobe. Someone who just throws things out there thinking that they are protected by the first amendment needs to make sure they can back up what they say. It's no different than saying you are a homophobe, SDS. Would you like someone saying that about you?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by realistic

Bart Giamatti was a good man. Mr Strybel didn't post his opinion, he committed libel unless he can prove that Giamatti was a homophobe. Someone who just throws things out there thinking that they are protected by the first amendment needs to make sure they can back up what they say. It's no different than saying you are a homophobe, SDS. Would you like someone saying that about you?

You just proved you don't know the legal standards for libel.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Matt

You just proved you don't know the legal standards for libel.

Well, maybe he's in Britain.

Bart Giamatti had a career as a university professor, where homophobia is vanishingly rare. I've never heard this rumor about him before, but I don't believe it in the least.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by realistic

he committed libel unless he can prove that Giamatti was a homophobe.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you can't libel the dead.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Altor

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you can't libel the dead.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm 100% positive from personal experience that your statement here is dead wrong.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by realistic

Bart Giamatti was a good man. Mr Strybel didn't post his opinion(never mentioned it was), he committed libel unless he can prove that Giamatti was a homophobe. Someone who just throws things out there thinking that they are protected by the first amendment needs to make sure they can back up what they say. It's no different than saying you are a homophobe, SDS. Would you like someone saying that about you?

Nice try. We state our opinions here. At least I have the courage to use my name. Pallone's termination letter included homophobic rationale. Read James Reston's Collision at Home Plate: The lives of Pete Rose and Bart Giamatti. It appears to be the opinion of others too.

If reading a book is too much of a challenge, Google Dave Pallone. You will find numerous sites commenting on his firing and the homophobia the was pervasive in MLB at the time. Many sites include Pallone's own words. But, I suggest some of you read his dismissal letter before looking silly. In it, through the league attorney, A. Bartlett Giamatti cites a story from Pete Rose (who had run ins with Pallone on the field) regarding Pallone picking up a man at a Cincinnatti bar. The rumors were investigated by MLB but umtimately proved false. In firing Pallone in 1988, Giamatti stated, "We just don't feel you can handle the pressure from all the negative publicity." By inserting the alleged gay activity into the termination letter, the commssioner allowed for homophobia to prevail. At the time, Pallone was regarded as a solid umpire on the field. Giamatti was a moralist who held his charges to a high standard. We all know how he handled Pete Rose.

I also want to point out the lunacy of calling Pallone a scab. He was a Minor League umpire who worked to be among the best. He wanted to work MLB baseball and had the opportunity when those umpires walked out thinking they would end the season. They didn't. After the strike, he was retained by MLB because he was good. He worked the 1983 Major League Baseball All-Star Game and the 1987 National League Championship Series so his talent on the field was considerably more than what is possessed by those here. Pallone worked at a time when umpires could get in the faces of players and managers. Google his run in with Rose. He was a lightning rod and paid the price.

Back when the MiLB guys went on strike, I remember reading a piece by an SI writer. In it, he said that those who chose to cross the picket line were similar to Jackie Robinson. They were good enough but the door was closed and they wanted to live the dream. Those are his thoughts, not mine. While not a perfect comparison, it does allow for haters to deny that someone deserved to be there.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Nice try. We state our opinions here. At least I have the courage to use my name. Pallone's termination letter included homophobic rationale. Read James Reston's Collision at Home Plate: The lives of Pete Rose and Bart Giamatti. It appears to be the opinion of others too.

If reading a book is too much of a challenge, Google Dave Pallone. You will find numerous sites commenting on his firing and the homophobia the was pervasive in MLB at the time. Many sites include Pallone's own words. But, I suggest some of you read his dismissal letter before looking silly. In it, through the league attorney, A. Bartlett Giamatti cites a story from Pete Rose (who had run ins with Pallone on the field) regarding Pallone picking up a man at a Cincinnatti bar. The rumors were investigated by MLB but umtimately proved false. In firing Pallone in 1988, Giamatti stated, "We just don't feel you can handle the pressure from all the negative publicity." By inserting the alleged gay activity into the termination letter, the commssioner allowed for homophobia to prevail. At the time, Pallone was regarded as a solid umpire on the field. Giamatti was a moralist who held his charges to a high standard. We all know how he handled Pete Rose.

I also want to point out the lunacy of calling Pallone a scab. He was a Minor League umpire who worked to be among the best. He wanted to work MLB baseball and had the opportunity when those umpires walked out thinking they would end the season. They didn't. After the strike, he was retained by MLB because he was good. He worked the 1983 Major League Baseball All-Star Game and the 1987 National League Championship Series so his talent on the field was considerably more than what is possessed by those here. Pallone worked at a time when umpires could get in the faces of players and managers. Google his run in with Rose. He was a lightning rod and paid the price.

Back when the MiLB guys went on strike, I remember reading a piece by an SI writer. In it, he said that those who chose to cross the picket line were similar to Jackie Robinson. They were good enough but the door was closed and they wanted to live the dream. Those are his thoughts, not mine. While not a perfect comparison, it does allow for haters to deny that someone deserved to be there.

It's not often we agree completely, but we do here. Pallone should be finishing up his Major League career as a crew chief right about now, just like Derryl Cousins -- who was another 1979 replacement umpire. Instead, Pallone was fired because he is gay. No other reason than that holds water -- Pallone was one of the best umpires in the Major Leagues at the time of his firing and he ended up getting fired partially because he got bumped around the field by a criminal and because he had the audacity to do whatever was necessary to chase his dream, but mainly because he is a homosexual.

Anyone who throws around the word "scab" can go take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, maybe he's in Britain.

Bart Giamatti had a career as a university professor, where homophobia is vanishingly rare. I've never heard this rumor about him before, but I don't believe it in the least.

In my experience, college professors hold all kinds of views and are very opinionated about those views. I think we throw around that label too much, but that does not mean he was not discriminatory towards gays and based on what took place in the mentioned example of his views, he was not going to bat for this particular person.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not often we agree completely, but we do here. Pallone should be finishing up his Major League career as a crew chief right about now, just like Derryl Cousins -- who was another 1979 replacement umpire. Instead, Pallone was fired because he is gay. No other reason than that holds water -- Pallone was one of the best umpires in the Major Leagues at the time of his firing and he ended up getting fired partially because he got bumped around the field by a criminal and because he had the audacity to do whatever was necessary to chase his dream, but mainly because he is a homosexual.

Anyone who throws around the word "scab" can go take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks, Rich. This thread began as an attempt to explain just how hard it is to fire/demote Major League umpires. I use the present tense because it wasn't always that way.

Some here simply like to ridicule other umpires. I have never understood that mentality. It's a small world.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Thanks, Rich. This thread began as an attempt to explain just how hard it is to fire/demote Major League umpires. I use the present tense because it wasn't always that way.

Some here simply like to ridicule other umpires. I have never understood that mentality. It's a small world.

And it should not be that hard to do so. I think MLB gets this wrong more often than not in how they hold onto or get rid of umpires on their staff. There are simply guys that need to get the walking papers. That is the case in other sports, if you do not grade out they get rid of you. And I think their position is why guys get on MLB's umpires in the first place. You should not be able to stay if you weight 300 pounds even if you are a good guy.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Thanks, Rich. This thread began as an attempt to explain just how hard it is to fire/demote Major League umpires. I use the present tense because it wasn't always that way.

Some here simply like to ridicule other umpires. I have never understood that mentality. It's a small world.

Nope. One thing that the union did was make it harder for umpires to get fired for petty reasons, like trying to form a union (Bill Valentine and Al Salerno).

But the downside to this is that some umpires should've been let go and others should've been quietly asked to retire years before they did -- and that kept some quality umpires from ever getting their shot at the Major Leagues.