Umpires complaining about other umpires

[tcannizzo]

Where do you wheigh in on this? Where do you draw the line?

You are an umpire. You are watching a game as an observer, perhaps as an interested party to one of the teams, perhaps not.

You are doing your own informal evaluation of the crew, and you see garbage. I mean real garbage.

Do you look around to see if evaluators are watching?

And what if you look, but none of the evaluators are at this field, although they are present at the venue (i.e. a tournament)?

Do you approach an evaluator? Do you let it go?

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
.......

And what if you look, but none of the evaluators are at this field, although they are present at the venue (i.e. a tournament)?

Do you approach an evaluator? Do you let it go?

I wouldn't. If the evaluator is there, they'll find the garbage soon enough. I don't think you would add anything to the critique of the garbage that they wouuldn't see anyway.

Now, if you are at a field and see something happening that affects the game in a negative way, call your UIC or whoever, only if no one is there. There are some very, very, very good umpires here in North Texas and some very, very, very bad umpires also. While I would much rather call a game with the former, it is very seldom that I would refuse to work with the latter. Actually, there are only 2 of these, one who has promised to take a swing at me and one who just doesn't care if he calls a good game or not, as long as he gets paid. All the UIC's I work with know this and never even try to put us on the same field.

I guess what it boils down to is, if there are people present who do the evaluating, let them do their job. If not, let someone know there may be a problem then let the proper people take care of it.

[whaddayouknow]

If I'm an employee of XYZ company and I see a fellow employee screwing up, I will mentioning it to my boss. I do the same with my officiating organization. ("Mr Evaluator, I just happened to be watching Bob over on field three last night and it looked like he was having some problems with positioning. You might want to double check him.")

If I was an employee of XYZ company and I see an employee of ABC company screwing up, I will ensure my money is not being spent on inferior services. I won't tell them how to do their job, but I will tell the management of that organization what I expect as a customer.

If it's a newer official I might mention it to them or an evaluator but only to help them not to get them into hot water. With a more experienced official I would mention it to them and if they are not receptive I would keep my mouth shut and let them hang themselves.

[Andy]

I would not go looking for an evaluator to drag over there to see the "garbage", but I would mentally file what I saw for future reference.

If asked by someone that "needs to know", I would provide an honest assessment of what I saw on that day, in that situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by orangeump
I gotta go to war with these guys, you think I am gonna want to work with some guy that doesnt like me or other umpires? He is sitting there working the plate watching what I am doing over what he needs to be doing? give me a break! I am not working with him or her and I will tell them that

I will work with anyone. I do it by the book and in my position, most umpires will bring their game up a level. I'm not naive to believe that the umpire will change their ways because of it, but I'm always hopeful there will be something learned.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
Where do you wheigh in on this? Where do you draw the line?

You are an umpire. You are watching a game as an observer, perhaps as an interested party to one of the teams, perhaps not.

You are doing your own informal evaluation of the crew, and you see garbage. I mean real garbage.

Do you look around to see if evaluators are watching?

And what if you look, but none of the evaluators are at this field, although they are present at the venue (i.e. a tournament)?

Do you approach an evaluator? Do you let it go?

Unless you have some official capacity in the umpire's association (e.g. director of umpire training, etc.), leave it alone. The most I would suggest would be to talk with the umpire, apart from everyone else, after the game.

But, I would not deliver an unsolicited "evaluation" of a fellow umpire to the UIC if I had no standing to provide that evaluation.

[Panda Bear]

Is the problem serious enough to cause a safety or legal problem? If yes, then you have a moral obligation to take action.

If not, is it an isolated incident? We all have bad days, and if that's the case, the guy probably is all too aware of it.

I agree with the remark about making a mental note, just because, if over time, you find a clear pattern, then perhaps TACTFULLY speaking to the individual at an opportune time might be helpful.

ONLY if there is an apparent, reoccurring problem, AND there is no reception to low key efforts to help, then common sense says its time to take more agressive actions.

And that isn't an umpire thing, its a people thing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
Where do you wheigh in on this? Where do you draw the line?

You are an umpire. You are watching a game as an observer, perhaps as an interested party to one of the teams, perhaps not.

You are doing your own informal evaluation of the crew, and you see garbage. I mean real garbage.

Do you look around to see if evaluators are watching?

And what if you look, but none of the evaluators are at this field, although they are present at the venue (i.e. a tournament)?

Do you approach an evaluator? Do you let it go?

As a UIC, I often find that other umpires who do take it upon themselves to "counsel" another quite often gives errouneous information or suggestions. I know they are trying to be helpful, but I don't need a bad habit being passed around the umpiring ranks just because THIS particular umpire does something his/her way.

If you feel it is necessary to raise an issue, I would suggest you approach the evaluator/UIC and just ask if they've seen any of the game on Field #__.

Suggest or report nothing. Allow those who are there for that purpose to do their job.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Dakota
The most I would suggest would be to talk with the umpire, apart from everyone else, after the game.[/B]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
As a UIC, I often find that other umpires who do take it upon themselves to "counsel" another quite often gives errouneous information or suggestions. I know they are trying to be helpful, but I don't need a bad habit being passed around the umpiring ranks just because THIS particular umpire does something his/her way.

Good point.

[mccann]

When you talk about umpire evaluation, I was working a Nationl tournament and was told that I was too nervous, and was told that I was only qualified to work only 10-12 year olds. I have been an ASA umpire for 18yrs and have never had any problems how can they evaluate me on this when I had no coaches or other umpires say I was not doing my job. This was not my 1st National.

[azbigdawg]

Originally posted by mccann
When you talk about umpire evaluation, I was working a Nationl tournament and was told that I was too nervous, and was told that I was only qualified to work only 10-12 year olds. I have been an ASA umpire for 18yrs and have never had any problems how can they evaluate me on this when I had no coaches or other umpires say I was not doing my job. This was not my 1st National.

Keep Going.... You might make 14U yet!

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally posted by goldcoastump
If it's a newer official I might mention it to them or an evaluator but only to help them not to get them into hot water. With a more experienced official I would mention it to them and if they are not receptive I would keep my mouth shut and let them hang themselves.

I am just a first year umpire (ASA & NFHS) and as luck would have it, the first games I did this year were a Women's Class E slow pitch state qualifier. A month prior to the tournament I informed our regional UIC that I had not had any luck securing games (I coach my daughter's FP team and that caused conflicts with the two or three games I was offered) and offered to give up my spot in the field. He knew I had gone to all the meetings and he had quizzed me many times since I was the only new umpire in our region, so he told me he felt it would be a good learning experience for me.

We had three umpires working each field, rotating from PU to BU to off. The other two umpires I was working with were veterans of many years. The guy working the bases while I was behind the plate did not seem to like me very much. Unfortunately I think he remembered me from a game he did that I was coaching, and while the only problem we had was that I was unwilling to listen to his explanation of why he made a particular call, I guess my walking away from him left him with a chip on his shoulder for me. To make a long story short, I finished my first two games and as I was leaving the field, was greeted by this same guy who informed me gleefully that the UIC for the tournament wanted to see me. I got a mild butt chewing for three areas he felt I could improve upon (following BR further down the 1st base line, more verbal on balls/strikes and better inside/outside on the bases). I didn't have a problem with that...I was there to listen and learn. The problem I had was that the other umpire didn't come to me at some point to share his thoughts with me. It came across to me as him running off the field to find the UIC to let him know immediately what a screw-up I was. I took the criticism in stride and worked hard to improve and by the end of the first day (the only day I was scheduled to work) I got compliments from the other umires and was pleasantly surprised when the UIC asked me if I could come back the next day. The UIC was also the evaluator and I ended up with mostly "Good" and a few "Excellent" grades.

So yeah, with a rookie like me, let someone know. I would have preferred to hear it from my partner first, but at least I heard it and I applied it.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by BlitzkriegBob
...the only problem we had was that I was unwilling to listen to his explanation of why he made a particular call, I guess my walking away from him left him with a chip on his shoulder for me. ... The problem I had was that the other umpire didn't come to me at some point to share his thoughts with me. ...

Just a thought... these might be connected.

My first year of umpiring, I was partnered with a GOV. What I didn't appreciate was the during-the-game (not even between innings) coaching with hand motions, and even to the point of explaining to one of the coaches that my call was wrong (it wasn't, BTW). Now, I would never put up with this behavior, but then...

OTOH, that same year I also partnered with the state UIC for a couple of games and he provided excellent suggestions during low-key between inning conversations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

When I started in softbal, I worked many games with the association's rules interpreter, two Deputy UIC's, the State UIC and the legendary Tom Mason.

Being in a small state helped as I was fortunate enough to receive coaching from those who coach as part of the game.

As the UIC, I volunteer to work with first and second year umpires each season. I preface each game with, "I'm going to be throwing some things at you between each inning. Do not take anything personally. The info will be direct and concise. Do not worry about adjusting immediately, I just want it in your head. If you have questions, ASK between innings. We can take an extra 30 seconds if an explanation will help you and the game."

I do this because as his/her partner, I need to have my head in the game also, not be standing on the bases taking notes. After the game, I try to recount as much as possible.