pulled foot at 1st - getting help

[senior]

but for most of us, it's as good as it gets.

There are some problems with any coverage, even four man when they rotate.

Since most of us will never work the upper levels of the game, we have to be content with the hand we're dealt. If I can't expect any help on a play like you described with the question of a possible pulled foot, I would rather work alone, and leave your disagreeable partner find someone else to work with.

The call you described is one which is usually accepted by both teams when cooperation is exhibited by both Umpires.
If, however, for whatever reason you care to state, you do not go for help, you leave the door open for all types of criticism. I believe the modern thinking is to get the call right, and put the ego aside, if needed, to insure it is right. The old school of thought was that you showed some weakness if you got help, the newer thinking is to make the correct call, even if help is required.


Senior

[Jerry]

I'm from the old school . . . the BU has that call at 1st. If you're not sure whether F3's foot was on the bag or not, you should go with the "information" you do have; and make your "judgement call" (after all; that's what it is anyhow)on your own. Experience umpires do pretty well in "reading" the movements and actions of fielders, coach's expressions, etc. and add those clues to their "skill set" when making calls.

Not to be argumentative at all, but what if the PU was daydreaming? Or looking directly at the play but "seeing" something else? (As if THAT never happens!) Now you've got two umpires who aren't sure of what they saw. And you're still "stuck" with making the call. What if he replied, "I think he was off the bag." instead of a "Yes" or "No". Or God forbid, "I didn't see it." (As if THAT never happens either!)

As for the argument that you ask for help on checked swings . . . that's a requirement of the rules in OBR. Most experienced umpires won't do that either. It's enough having coaches, players and managers argue with one umpire, much less dragging your partner into that situation as well.

Jerry

[gsf23]

Don't you guys have a signal that you give each other to let your partner know that you can offer help if needed. Then you won't run into the problem of one partner asking help if the other one didn't see it.

[Jerry]

gsf23:
When you get on a regular crew, or even with a regular partner, subtle signals are an integral part of fulfilling our duties. Several "out", "safe", "yes", "no", "last warm-up pitch", etc. signals are prevalent in the upper levels of the game. As are our "count" signals. (An example: The PU only shows an odd count using his fingers; 0-1, 2-1, 3-2, etc.; as an aid to his partner in keeping counts. Another example is the BU returning to the A-Position (from his place on the outfield grass) in between innings just as the pitcher is ready to toss his last warm-up pitch.)

On close plays (the "bangers"), one should NEVER, EVER go to one's partner for help or advice. It's your job to "sell" the call AS YOU PERCEIVED IT. There's no signals, asking or second-guessing involved. You gotta make your own call and live with it. My comment to coaches or those who wish to ask my partner is simply, "He's got his own things to watch for. This was my call and I've got it('out/safe')."

Just as an added note . . . aren't there many times when the BU has a better view on whether a pitch was a ball or strike? We certainly don't expect the PU to ask for help then . . . even for the sake of "getting it right". Why in other instances?

Jerry

[gsf23]

Ball/strike is a little different, that is a judgement call. I wouldn't ask any umpire for help on a judgement call. I'm sorry but I just don't see the problem if you are at an angle that is preventing you from seeing a swipe tag, or if the the foot was pulled or not or whatever, in asking for help. I'm sorry, but I have just never understood the philosphy of living with the wrong call when you have a chance to make it right.

[Jerry]

gsf23

There's nothing wrong with asking others to help us make our calls. That's where we become more experienced at making OUR OWN calls; support for what we had to do anyhow.

For the moment, let's pretend we're doing the game on our own. What would you call? Probably no different than if you had a partner.

Go with your observations, instinct, training and gut. You'll have the same 50% against you!

By the way, #23 is my favorite.

Jerry

[kbaerslt]

When I attended pro school the base umpire had both ends of the play. We were also taught to get across the to the first base side of the feild on all grounds balls. Then let the throw if there is one take you back across the diamond into third or second. I still use this mech. and go over it before every game in my pregame no mater if i am PU or BU. We need to be on the same page when we step out on the feild as the third team.

[chuckfan1]

Pulled foot? Your where your supposed to be as a BU. He might have pulled it? Get help on that one. We want to get the call right? Or is it just an ego thing? Thats what your partner is there for. Just like on the check swing, get help. If coach starts barking about getting help the rest of the game, set him straight. I think Id rather get the call right, and maybe get a little grief from coach, than stroke my ego, ..."hey, its my call, I aint getting any help, hes out."

[GarthB]

Chuck writes:

I think Id rather get the call right, and maybe get a little grief from coach, than stroke my ego, .

I don't think Tee or anyone is saying to get the call wrong. They are saying that it is BU's job to get it right and not depend on someone saving his butt. If umpires spent as much time working on their mechanics to make this call as they do whining about "getting it right", they would.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by GarthB

I don't think Tee or anyone is saying to get the call wrong. They are saying that it is BU's job to get it right and not depend on someone saving his butt. If umpires spent as much time working on their mechanics to make this call as they do whining about "getting it right", they would.

It needs to be understood that the typical play where this is discussed is when BU is starting in C position where his responsibilities of the play can be at 1B, 2B and 3B. He cannot overcommit to any base, and a poor throw can result in F3 coming off the base directly at the BU where he is in poor position to see a pulled foot. Many times as PU I've seen obstinant BU's unwilling to seek help when needed when, indeed, the coach was correct in that the fielder left the base. If that obstinant official feels there is dignity in not needing help and missing that call, then so be it----it's his decision.

Getting help on this call when needed is not wrong.
It should not be used as a regular crutch for lack of good judgment and good mechanics. Needing help should by far be the exception as opposed to the rule.

A need for help when the situation dictates it does not necessarily mean poor mechanics of the official, but moreso reflects a weakness inherent in the 2-man system. Angle over distance---and sometimes the play develops where BU simply has a poor angle when starting in C while PU has a significantly better angle.


Freix

[GarthB]

BFair writes:

It needs to be understood that the typical play where this is discussed is when BU is starting in C position where his responsibilities of the play can be at 1B, 2B and 3B. He cannot overcommit to any base, and a poor throw can result in F3 coming off the base directly at the BU where he is in poor position to see a pulled foot.

That is true when BU is standing in a bucket of cement at the C position. Anyone who simply remains standing in the same "C" position taking root in the grass while all this is going on is always going to be asking for help.


My previous comment stands. Spend as much time solving the problem as whining about it.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 29th, 2003 at 11:02 PM]

[Bfair]

Originally posted by GarthB
BFair writes:

It needs to be understood that the typical play where this is discussed is when BU is starting in C position where his responsibilities of the play can be at 1B, 2B and 3B. He cannot overcommit to any base, and a poor throw can result in F3 coming off the base directly at the BU where he is in poor position to see a pulled foot.

That is true when BU is standing in a bucket of cement at the C position. Anyone who simply remains standing in the same "C" position taking root in the grass while all this is going on is always going to be asking for help.


My previous comment stands. Spend as much time solving the problem as whining about it.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 29th, 2003 at 11:02 PM]

Garth, there are varying levels of baseball out there, and you can't always react to what you anticipate to be the expected play. It's not a matter of feet in cement, but rather not overcommitting on your expectation so you don't find yourself out of position trying to make the call on a close slide play at 3rd. It's also possible to float toward 1B only to find a snap throw going back to 2B on a diving runner.

We are amateur umpires, Garth, of varying levels of experience.
While the more experienced may be able to better read the plays, there are still many in the learning process. If they overcommit they may find themselves in far more difficulty than that pulled foot. If they're willing to understand the weakness of the two man system on a play starting with R2 only, they are more likely to get the call right wherever the play occurs if they realize there may be times when they need to seek their partner's help. As the official gains experience, his needs for help should lessen.

Pure and simple---plays can arise where a BU starting in C has a crappy angle on F3's pulled foot. The PU has a significantly better angle on that play than the BU if help is needed. Angle over distance is a well known standard of officiating.


Freix

[Whowefoolin]

Runner on 2nd and I am in the "C" position. Ball hit to F5 and he looks back runner. Runner comes a ways down line which makes F5 react to him momentarily.

After chasing the runner back he hurries a throw to F3 who has to stretch for a weak *** throw.

You are in "C" position area because of potential run-down/tag play there. Now you have to turn and determine if the foot is on or off the base.

This is what I am doing: I figure the PU is at home because of a potential base hit and play at the plate (plus we have signaled this before-hand). I can't quite see the foot on or off the base (because my eye sight and self-expressed experience is as good as Garth's/Tee's).

I make a quick look at the PU to see if he is watching the play. If he is, I ask him what he saw. If he is picking his butt next to the dugout, I make the call at the best discretion I have of the play and make it hard.

"Shock and Awe"...get ready for some Shock from the manager/players, but Awe them with the call.

[Rog]

So many words covering what should be simple mechanics for any base umpire.

It has always been explained to me that in the two-man system the Base umpire should recognise when there may be multiple choices of a play, and never anticipate what the play will be.
Odds are that anticipating the play (or order of the subsequent play's) will only bring up Murphy's Law and more times than not you will choose poorly and be caught out of position.
Under such situations the base umpire needs to hold their position and follow the ball to the play(s) as quickly as they possibly.
If the play is late occuring due to the defensive players stalling, juggling or the ball, etc. the base umpire can only act according to what the defense does with the ball.
If any coach gets upset because you were not where you would have like to have been for such plays, then that coach needs to advised that you are not a magician and you will make the best call possible for such plays.
Okay, let's play......



"you can't always react to what you anticipate to be the expected play. It's not a matter of feet in cement, but rather not overcommitting on your expectation so you don't find yourself out of position trying to make the call on a close slide play at 3rd. It's also possible to float toward 1B only to find a snap throw going back to 2B on a diving runner.
..............
While the more experienced may be able to better read the plays, there are still many in the learning process. If they overcommit they may find themselves in far more difficulty than that pulled foot.........."

[Tim C]

As a BU I cannot picture not being in the correct "area" to make any call. Call it experience, good guessing, or blind luck I have never found myself being hung out cuz I "assumed" a play would happen and something else came up.

I am not magic, nor am I the greatest umpire on earth . . . what I am is a student of the game to a level that it is a great assist to my umpiring.

From "C" arguments make me laugh. If we believe in "angle over distance" then that argument goes south, fast (but wait, pretty soon will have someone say you can't call check swings from B or C either, another silly argument).

As a BU if you can't take a step, lean, and peak then maybe you better try officiating table tennis.

As a BU you can "get your calls" if you understand the game and work at it. Don't give me excuses.

Maybe as a BU on the next steal of second base I'll stop play and ask my PU, "Hey Stan, did he tag him!"

Lah Me.