LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs.

[JRutledge]

If they train them better or pay umpires (who are experienced and have knowledge of their field responsibilities) they might not have to worry about replay on these kinds of plays or doing what the NFL does.

Peace

[TwoBits]

Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

I can't say all of the umpires I've seen in past years have had little training. Florence Stansbury, the first (only?) woman to have umpired home plate in the LLWS championship game lives 100 miles south of me, and I've had the privilege of working with her in FED baseball. She has also officiating the women's CWS.

(end shameless name drop)

I was pleased to see the officiating crew correctly take a run off the board on a bases loaded, 1 out play in the Canada-Venezuela game. Venezuelan batter hit a hot grounder to third, F5 stepped on third for the second out and threw home in attempt to retire R3, but F2 did not apply the tag, apparently scoring the run. However, R1 had retreated back to first instead of advancing to second. The defense, recognizing the base running error, threw to second and tagged (not forced) R1 between first and second for the third out. While the announcers and the Venezuelan coaches wanted the run to score, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was made by a runner before reaching the base he was forced to.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

I can't say all of the umpires I've seen in past years have had little training. Florence Stansbury, the first (only?) woman to have umpired home plate in the LLWS championship game lives 100 miles south of me, and I've had the privilege of working with her in FED baseball. She has also officiating the women's CWS.

(end shameless name drop)

I worked with in my state finals in baseball with a umpire that had the previous year worked the LLWS. Not all of these umpires are terrible, but many of the mechanics we see or basic things are not signs of well trained umpires. This play was a suggestion that either no one talked about basic mechanics or this was never discussed in a training or meeting.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I worked with in my state finals in baseball with a umpire that had the previous year worked the LLWS. Not all of these umpires are terrible, but many of the mechanics we see or basic things are not signs of well trained umpires. This play was a suggestion that either no one talked about basic mechanics or this was never discussed in a training or meeting.

Peace

Or someone simply made a mistake. Unfortunately, with so many poorly trained umpires there, the assumption is that every error is because of a lack of training.

The guy that called foul is one of the top umpires in the Western Region and an instructor who owned his mistake on his blog the next day. He said he failed to follow his own teaching -- to know your responsibilities. Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Or someone simply made a mistake. Unfortunately, with so many poorly trained umpires there, the assumption is that every error is because of a lack of training.

You are right it could of been, but there are too many of these mistakes to chalk it up to just a mistake all the time. Every year we see many big time mistakes that do not happen with even the inexperienced umpires in games I see during the HS season.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The guy that called foul is one of the top umpires in the Western Region and an instructor who owned his mistake on his blog the next day. He said he failed to follow his own teaching -- to know your responsibilities. Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

Honestly I do not know why they use 6 Man on these games to begin with. Too small a field.

I know you are trying to defend the guys you work with, but you are telling me that the current system gets the best available guys working games by making everyone pay their way? That is the best system with national television watching every move and paying for many other things, but the umpires have to pay their way to just work these games? Again, they get what they pay for.

Peace

[rngrck]

Agree, there is no need or room to have 6 umpires on a LL field. I can see only bad things happening with alot of uncertainity with calls.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right it could of been, but there are too many of these mistakes to chalk it up to just a mistake all the time. Every year we see many big time mistakes that do not happen with even the inexperienced umpires in games I see during the HS season.



Honestly I do not know why they use 6 Man on these games to begin with. Too small a field.

I know you are trying to defend the guys you work with, but you are telling me that the current system gets the best available guys working games by making everyone pay their way? That is the best system with national television watching every move and paying for many other things, but the umpires have to pay their way to just work these games? Again, they get what they pay for.

Peace

This Summer I worked College Wood Bat and a few games using Little League Rules (I got paid) and everything in between. There's no room on a 60 foot field for a six man crew. I don't even see the need for a two man crew. There's no stealing or dropped third. A few steps toward any base and you have everything covered. I did work some two man and the field guy plays behind the fielders. We decided that U1 would handle first and 2nd and the UIC the plate and third. Exceptions to this R1 going back to first UIC would get this and R3 going back to 3rd U1 would get this. U1 also needs to be "ready" handle plays at 3rd if UIC is otherwise occupied. Not sure of the proper LL Mechanics but 15 minutes before the game this is how we decided to cover the field.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

I don't even see the need for a two man crew. There's no stealing or dropped third.

I'm sorry, but there IS stealing. I've done plenty of LL games alone, and a steal of second can get pretty dicey.

Ace

[Publius]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field.

U5 and U6 can be quite valuable on adult-sized fields. MLB wastes them by positioning them improperly. They belong behind the outfielders.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Publius

U5 and U6 can be quite valuable on adult-sized fields. MLB wastes them by positioning them improperly. They belong behind the outfielders.

How do they rule on a sinking line drive directly in front of F7 or F9 if they are behind the fielders? We don't want to have U1 or U3 involved, do we?

I position myself in fair ground no more than a step in front of the fielder with the knowledge I need to be ready to sprint forward in the event of a sinking liner.

[David B]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

I agree, that's probably the biggest mistake they make. I know they are trying to reward umpires and allow them to be part of the "extravaganza" that LLWS has become.

However, they end up shooting themselves in the foot every year because it creates way too much indecision etc.,

I'm sure they analyze it, must be what they want since they keep on doing the same thing year after year.

Thanks
David

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

Nce thought poorly executed. anyway most LL umps I know get all kinds of non monetary concessions like free gear, free food, free registration for their kids to play (no charge)......it's embarrassing that they call themselves volunteers...

They're volunteers. Lets see a hot dog and a coke. $3.00 at the most for working a 2 hour game. That's a volunteer! Lets see free gear the balloon and shin guards that are in the box at the field. A free shirt and hat. The Coaches get that and they're volunteers. Lay off those guys they perform a valuable community service. And no I'm not a "volunteer umpire". I'll donate my services for a charity function but that's the extent of my volunteering. But I do respect the guys that volunteer to officiate games so the kids can play.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

We have different definitions of volunteer, I use the classicla one and so does the LL. No pay for work. Noted that you cut out the part where the LL umpires whose kids get free play with no pay.

Everyone one of these guys have a kid in the league? I don't think so. And so what if their kids play for free. They're volunteers IMHO. Like I said I have a tough time coming down hard on guys who are providing a service so the kids can play. Hell I get paid and quite often I'm offered stuff from the concession stand. So I guess I'm getting paid double.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

We have different definitions of volunteer, I use the classicla one and so does the LL. No pay for work. Noted that you cut out the part where the LL umpires whose kids get free play with no pay.

I guess that umpiring Little League at an overall loss isn't enough for you (and I did so this year, despite some reimbursements for expenses I received).

I did this community service despite plenty of opportunity to work adult baseball, Legion, Babe Ruth, and plenty of other summer baseball.

Never mind, you're just a troll who will be banned again very soon.

[aceholleran]

I guess this is one area on this board where I am somewhat of an expert, after 33 years of doing LL at levels up to Regional. Plus HS, Legion and a summer league of ex-college and -pro players. I retired at the end of last season.

Some of the WP assignments are actually based on merit, some are international (for diversity's sake) and some are handed out to the Smittys of the world.

It's the latter group that irks me.

These are guys who, for the most part, have worked nothing other than LL. And they've been doing it since the Liston-Patterson fight. They're not members of any association, so there isn't anyone guiding them about attire, comportment, game management, mechanics and the zillion other things we must do in order to hone our skills. In short, they've been making the same mistakes--for decades--without criticism ("But that's Uncle Bumps; he's been in this league for 38 years, so he must be right").

IMHO, the reality is: some of us might have started in LL but realized that the best way to improve is to do "higher" levels. I know quite a few former LL umps who just stopped doing it in favor of "moving up." And yes, the monetary factor enters here. FWIW, I am fully in favor of paid umpires at all levels.

I saw a totally embarrassing sitch last night as MEA played Japan. It was simple: R1, 1 out. B1 hits a hot grounder to F5, who fields it in foul territory right near 3B.

PU correctly calls the ball foul. F5 throws to F4, who "retires" R1. I could not see if U2 made a "call" or not. R1 heads back toward dugout, with B1 standing on first. None of the umps does anything to right this, for about 30 seconds.

Finally, PU comes down the line toward 1B. He looks at both players says (and I quote, because I have DVR!): "Who was my last batter?"

[Could not hear an answer. May I insert a "duh" here?]

PU continues, pointing at B1, "You're at the plate and you," pointing at R1,
"are wherever you were at when the play started."

Just horrendous. But, as announcers love to say, "The right call was made."

I am disappointed to say that I don't think this system will ever be rectified. Every August, you'll see Ole Gramps back there, gut hanging out, looking the way that makes members of this group cringe. As we should; I firmly believe that 99% of this group is truly dedicated to excellence in officiating.

I have a way to fix this, but they'd have to pay me for it. Which ain't gonna happen.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

Ace Holleran
Barcalounger League