accidental force play

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 01:46pm

I no longer do Fed, but I am wondering if they either jettisoned or modified their infamous "accidental force play" rule this year.

Abel hits a ball off the fence. He misses 1B, touches 2B, and slides safely into 3B. However, F5 lazily tags Abel anyway. Is Abel still to be called out immediately, without an appeal, for missing 1B? (Can there be an intervening play, for example?)

And if Fed did keep the rule, have they defined exactly when liability to be put out on the accidental force play ceases?

DownTownTonyBrown · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 05:22pm

This play now requires an appeal. F5 must state why he is tagging (live ball appeal). The coach can request time and also make an appeal without tagging the runner (dead ball appeal).

If the appeal has not been made before the next play initiated by the defense (e.g. a pitch, an intentionally walked batter, or a pick-off attempt)then, opportunity to make the appeal is ended and the runner cannot now be called out for missing 1st.

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 07:01pm

Thanks for the explanation, Tony. If the play now requires an appeal, how do they call this one:

Abel hits a ground ball to short and clearly beats the throw to 1B but misses the base. Is that now an appeal play, or does the ump still call Abel out?

And if the ump does call Abel out, how is the play where Abel triples but misses 1B any different?

Jeffhead · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 07:11pm

The missed bag at first is an appeal play. Hold your call and if the runner gets back to the back before the defense tags the runner or bag, no harm, no foul. We went over that play in our field clinic.
Jeff

Tim C · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 08:11pm

Great to hear from you. I lost contact a couple of years ago when we discussed many umpire activities.

Where are you working these days?

Tee

jicecone · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:27pm

"Hold your call and if the runner gets back to the back before the defense tags the runner or bag, no harm, no foul."

Is'nt the runner considered "Safe". Holding the call, tips the defense off that there is something wrong and a possible appeal is in order. That is the responsibilty of the defense to figure that out without our help.

Our instructions were to signal safe. On proper appeal the runner could be declared out. But usually the runner has returned to the bag by then anyway.

This is one of those plays that is discussed about 100,000 times more than it actually happens. Even then, it usually happens like this:

Runner crosses over bag, Umpire calls out. Coach asked if he missed the bag or umpires states that the runner missed the bag and it is readily accepted.

I know its not by the Book, but there is a large contingent of umpires out there that can not accept the fact that it is the responsibilty of the defense, (Now in Fed) to be aware of baserunning infractions, instead of the official. Im glad the various rules are coming closer together on this.

PeteBooth · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 11:06pm

Originally posted by jicecone

"Hold your call and if the runner gets back to the back before the defense tags the runner or bag, no harm, no foul."

Is'nt the runner considered "Safe". Holding the call, tips the defense off that there is something wrong and a possible appeal is in order. That is the responsibilty of the defense to figure that out without our help.

Our instructions were to signal safe. On proper appeal the runner could be declared out. But usually the runner has returned to the bag by then anyway.

This is FED. When B1 beats the throw to first base but does NOT touch the bag and F3 steps on the bag with the ball, B1 is OUT.

You gave the OBR mechanic.

Here's a FED case play which illustrates this very issue.

FED Case Play 8.2.3

B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but MISSES first base. F3 catches the ball and CASUALLY (ACCIDENTALLY), steps on first base.

RULING

B1 is OUT, because a FORCE Play is being made on a runner and is the result of continuous action. F3 is NOT required to appeal the missed base and needs only to complete the Force Out.

In FED, on a Force Play situation an appeal is not needed. A Fielder need only "accidentally" step on the bag and in FED we record the out.

Another example; R1 2 outs. B1 singles to right and R1 on route to third base MISSES second. F4/F6 in bringing the ball back into the infield "accidentally" steps on second.

In FED we would register the out.

This is not the case in OBR.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Mar 11th, 2003 at 10:41 PM]

Jeffhead · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 11:19pm

Pete,
Thanks for the case book info. Given that, what mechanic do you use? As I said we were instructed to hold the call. Not being argumentative, just looking to get it right.

Tee,
You may be thinking of another person. Although we are "neighbors", I live and work games in Olympia (and you are in Portland I believe). This will be my 3rd year of umpiring and starting posting on the discussion boards last year.
Jeff

PeteBooth · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 11:40pm

Originally posted by Jeffhead

Pete,
Thanks for the case book info. Given that, what mechanic do you use? As I said we were instructed to hold the call. Not being argumentative, just looking to get it right.

OBR Mechanic

In OBR when B1 beats the throw but does not Touch the bag, the BU gives the Safe Signal unless the defense appeals. Also, keep in mind "relaxed" vs. "unrelaxed" action. By that I mean suppose B1 misses first base, but immediately trys to correct his /her mistake. At that point in time (action unrelaxed), we do not recognize an appeal, the runner would have to be tagged.

If the action is relaxed meaning the runner is 10 ft. or so passed the bag, then all that is needed is for F3 to say "Blue he /she missed first" step on bag with the ball and we register the out or Give an unmistakable act that he /she is appealing.

FED Mechanic

As mentioned in FED, if F3 touches the bag with the ball we give the OUT signal. If F3 does not "accidentally" step on the bag with the ball, then do as the OBR umpire.

IMO "holding" a call tips the defense. Most of the time F3 will have the ball on the bag, so it's a non issue in FED.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Mar 11th, 2003 at 10:43 PM]

Bfair · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 09:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

This play now requires an appeal. F5 must state why he is tagging (live ball appeal). The coach can request time and also make an appeal without tagging the runner (dead ball appeal).

From the Fed 2002 website ruings:

Please note the final rule references provided by the Fed.
Have any of these rules changed this year?

This play remains in the Fed 2003 Casebook:

So, we know as of last year that accidental tagging of a forced runner who missed a forced base yet is standing on another base is sufficient to gain the out. We also know by caseplay that accidental tagging of his missed forced base remains valid this year to obtain an out.

Tony, can you cite any proof to support your statement that tagging of the forced runner who missed a base is no longer valid? While I heard that the topic may have been under review by the Fed, I can't recall seeing anything that eliminates their interpretation from last year.

Freix

woolnojg · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 09:20am

Let me see. Batter hits the ball and runs to 1st. B/R misses 1st base but does so before the throw arrives.
Under OBR you are supposed to call safe when the B/R is clearly not safe or not out. Where is the call in this? The defense has not made the out yet and the B/R has not yet touched the base. You have no call at this point because the play is not yet complete.

Tim C · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 10:02am

While what you say is correct for a play at the Plate it is not true for a play at first.

The accepted mechanic is as listed above by others.

Tee

greymule · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 10:24am

So we have no evidence that Fed has eliminated or modified their "accidental force play" rule.

Tim: Wouldn't it be correct for a force play at the plate? Bases loaded, ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 touching the plate after R3 beat the throw but missed the plate. If the out at 1B still applies, which apparently it does, I would think the play at home would be a parallel situation. I don't remember any exceptions for home.

BJ Moose · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
This play now requires an appeal. F5 must state why he is tagging (live ball appeal.

DTTB:
(and all).

The statement above is completely FALSE.

In fact, the "accidental appeal" is still alive and must be called.

The runner in the example is out, by accident.

My fav is R1 rounds and misses second. He continues on to HOME on the triple by BR. Throw finally comes in to INFIELDER who takes throw while coincidently STANDING on 2nd base.

R1 is now immediately called OUT.

greymule · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 12, 2003, 03:32pm

My favorite is the inside-the-park home run, after which the catcher hands the ball to the BR for a souvenir and the umpire calls him out for missing 1B.

Or Abel triples but misses 1B. They intentionally walk Baker and Charles. Then they try to pick Charles off 1B and F3 has his foot on the bag, so they call Abel out on the accidental force play. (We never did determine whether that was possible or not, but who knows?)