accidental force play

[gobama84]

Originally posted by greymule
Or Abel triples but misses 1B. They intentionally walk Baker and Charles. Then they try to pick Charles off 1B and F3 has his foot on the bag, so they call Abel out on the accidental force play. (We never did determine whether that was possible or not, but who knows?)

In FED the defense has made a play when they intentionally wak Baker, thus no appeal allowed.

[greymule]

Don't bet on it. We got a ruling from Fed last year to the effect that only a pitch nullifies an appeal. Not a pickoff, not an intentional walk.

However, what everyone calls the "accidental appeal" is really the "accidental force play." The question is whether a break in continuing action (whatever that is exactly) nullifies the accidental force play.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

Don't bet on it. We got a ruling from Fed last year to the effect that only a pitch nullifies an appeal. Not a pickoff, not an intentional walk.

That was the ruling LAST year. This year the ruling has changed to include an intentional base on balls.

The Live Ball appeal is virtually the same as OBR except in 2 cases.

1. The Offense initiates the play. ie; R1. B1 singles and R1 missess second on route to third base. B1 seeing his teammate miss second starts walking towards second in hopes that F1 will play on him. F1 proceeds to make a play. Can the defense appeal.

In FED, the answer is YES becasue the offense initiated a play.

2. F1 attempts an appeal of R1 now on third base but throws the ball into DBT. Can the defense still appeal.

In FED the answer is yes. In OBR NO.

Grey you have been away from FED too long. There are a number of changes this year that were not there last year. If you are still interested in the FED rule changes visit the NFHS website where they have a listing of all the rule changes.

Pete Booth

[NJumpire9]

Can't call Abel out on appeal in Greymule's play above, as the Intentional walks are "plays", thus the defense loses their right to appeal.

[jicecone]

Ok Im confused.

I will quote our Interpreter's statement about Case 8.2.3, Fed Pg 56. "Strike It from your Book, It was applicable last year , but not this Year."

Can someone help out here?

I understood there were some cases that were wrong in the CaseBook this year because of the timing of it's printing and rulings on this subject. Is this one of them ?

Once again, I don't believe that it that big a deal because of the infrequency that it happens however, I also want to get it right.

[greymule]

If your interpreter is correct, then Fed has made a significant change. The "accidental force play" is indeed gone, the answer to my original post. All those situations, derived from 8.2.3, in which a runner who has missed a base to which he was forced and then a fielder casually tags him or touches the base can now be forgotten.

We can also forget about trying to determine whether continuing action has stopped and the accidental force is still in effect.

It's true, as you say, that such plays are not everyday occurrences. But I've seen the play described in 8.2.3 many times, including in MLB.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jicecone
Ok Im confused.

I will quote our Interpreter's statement about Case 8.2.3, Fed Pg 56. "Strike It from your Book, It was applicable last year , but not this Year."

Can someone help out here?

I understood there were some cases that were wrong in the CaseBook this year because of the timing of it's printing and rulings on this subject. Is this one of them ?

Once again, I don't believe that it that big a deal because of the infrequency that it happens however, I also want to get it right.

THe ruling still applies in FED. Your state might (and apparenlty does) have a different interpretation.

[jicecone]

"FED Case Play 8.2.3

B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but MISSES first base. F3 catches the ball and CASUALLY (ACCIDENTALLY), steps on first base."

I will contine to look into this, but in the meantime I also will signal the runner safe. Why? The case states that the runner "arrives safely but MISSES first base.", which lends credelence to declaring the runner safe.

[gsf23]

Looking at the FED site:

8-2 Penalty (Art. 1-5) For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch (legal or illegal), granting an intentional base on balls, or before the next play or attempted play. If the offensive team initiates a play before the next pitch, the defensive team does not lose the right to appeal. A live ball appeal may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early.


So according to that, the intentional walk cancels the appeal. If the offense initiates the play, then the appeal still stands. During a live ball appeal, the defense just needs to tag the base or the runner, they do not need to say why they are doing this.

[greymule]

No. An appeal is still an appeal. The defense must say why they are tagging the runner or the base. But if B1 hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, touches 2B, slides safely into 3B, and then is nonchalantly tagged by F5, B1 is called out, not on an appeal play, but on the "accidental force play."

[Tim C]

How much Fed do you work?

Tee

[greymule]

I stopped doing Fed after last year. I was just wondering whether they addressed the "accidental force play" situation that has caused so much controversy. Unfortunately, the posts have been confusing. Some people say Fed made some changes, one says they eliminated the rule, others are confusing force plays with appeal plays.

8.2.3 is not an appeal play. It is a "force play" (even though by strict definition it is not).

[gobama84]

Originally posted by greymule
No. An appeal is still an appeal. The defense must say why they are tagging the runner or the base.

If gsf23 had quoted the entire Penalty with Note then it might have been more clear.

PENALTY (Art. 1-5): For failure to touch a base (advancing and returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch (legal or illegal), granting an intentional base on balls, or before the next play or attempted play. If the offensive team initiates a play before the next pitch, the defensive team does not lose the right to appeal. A live-ball appeal may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch; (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory; (3) before an intentional base on balls is granted; or (4) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary, e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress.

[greymule]

gobama84: I understand that when a runner is doubled off base on a line drive and what's happening is obvious to everybody in the park, the defense does not have to vocalize an appeal. That's not the point. I'm asking about the accidental force play, which has nothing to do with appeals or appeal procedure.