Perception or Reality

[asdf]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I love the smell of rightousness and arrogance on an off day.

The expected lecture was received on an unexpected thread.

[dfwump]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

What? All umpire calls are perceived calls. If you worry about what fans, players and coaches percieve then it is time to contact eBay about selling your gear.

Your comment about the plate call is amiss. The plate umpire called the play because his angle showed the catcher holding onto the ball after what appeared to be enough contact with the runner. He did not have the benefit of slow motion replay. He judged the playing action and made his call, it was hardly the expected call. (sigh and roll eyes)

Mike,
You habitually make definitive statements of fact without supporting information. How in the world do you know why the plate ump in question made this out call. Do you have information the the rest of us do not? Perhaps you know the umpire and talked with him after the game? If not, you have amazing powers of insight.

Mike C

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dfwump

Mike,
You habitually make definitive statements of fact without supporting information. How in the world do you know why the plate ump in question made this out call. Do you have information the the rest of us do not? Perhaps you know the umpire and talked with him after the game? If not, you have amazing powers of insight.

Mike C

Yawn.

How in the world do I know why the plate umpire made the call? Really? Really? Because he called the guy out while looking at the play and assessing that a tag had been made. There is no instruction from MLB to call a runner out when he runs over the catcher but is not tagged. Mike DiMuro didn't simply guess at the call, he was trained to get a good angle and watch what happens. He did what he could and waited a second to see if the ball was still held. I don't require clairvoyance, just an ability to read the rules and know what they mean. Try it instead of being a stalker.

[DG]

The runner crashed the catcher, catcher held onto the ball. Expected call made based on best judgment. I would be surprised if any of paying fans present had issue with the call and even more surprised if any of the players being paid had a problem with the call.

[asdf]

Better yet, in this day of replay, super slow-mo HD, and anything else they can think of....

Not one compalint from the Boston faithful that no tag was made on this play.... Wanna know why ????...............

It was the expected call......


Even from the fans.

[MikeStrybel]

You remind me of the dog who chases his tail out of a need to look fast to the other dogs. Let it go. Let it go.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by asdf

Better yet, in this day of replay, super slow-mo HD, and anything else they can think of....

Not one compalint from the Boston faithful that no tag was made on this play.... Wanna know why ????...............

It was the expected call......


Even from the fans.

I disagree. There were no complaints because everyone - including the announcers watching the replay - was 100% certain the runner was tagged. It had nothing to do with the expected call.

[MikeStrybel]

Logic. Thank you. Every call is expected by at least some in attendance, often by those with little knowledge of the rules or mechanics. Pandering to those who want to cheat the rules is not acceptable to most professionals. If you receive money for doing the job, you are a professional. I read that from another on this forum.

Expected calls - those made with exception to the rule - are thankfully leaving the game. Some need to let it go.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I disagree. There were no complaints because everyone - including the announcers watching the replay - was 100% certain the runner was tagged. It had nothing to do with the expected call.

That's my whole point.

Even after the super slow-mo razzle dazzle HD showed that the tag had not been applied according to rule, there was no complaining that a tag had not been made.

Yet, on the play at the plate in the 19 inning game, the immediate gripe was "the catcher was waiting on the runner and the runner popped up 3 feet in front of the plate". Had the call been "out" and the super slow-mo showed no tag, you would not have heard a peep from anyone for the reasons stated prior.

Both expected calls.

Anyone who says it doesn't happen hasn't a clue.

[dash_riprock]

Never mind.

[BSUmp16]

Reading all these posts reminded me of a section I had read in Bruce Weber's Book "As They See 'Em" (which is well worth the read). I think this excerpt gets to the heart of the matter:

It's fair to say my umpiring beginnings were modest. My first game was a Little League contest; I was on the bases. And my first call of any consequence I got wrong on purpose. The team at bat had scored a dozen or so runs in the third inning, largely because the first baseman had dropped three perfectly good throws, and with the score something like 20-1, the poor kid finally held on to one. The runner, however, had beaten the throw by a stride and a half. I did my job.

"He's out!" I bellowed.

The reactions were interesting. The center fielder, sprinting by on his way to the dugout, said, "Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr. Umpire," with the plaintive gratitude of a squirming boy who'd been excused early from an overlong church sermon. One of the parents on the sideline growled at me, "You're kidding, right, Blue?"

"I'd had enough, hadn't you?" I said.

"That's bull****."

My partner, one of the league's regular umpires, stared daggers of disgust in my direction and didn't talk to me for the rest of the game, which thankfully ended, owing to a local slaughter rule, after the fourth inning.

Afterward, the coach of the winning team came over and shook my hand and winked at me. "Nice job on that call," he said.

I didn't think a lot about it at the time; it became just a small, funny story I enjoyed telling. But in retrospect it was a good introductory lesson in the distinctions among an umpire's authority, his power; and his job. Is an umpire only supposed to get it right, with nothing to come between him and the pure call? Or does he more appropriately consider context? Things such as sportsmanship, the personality of the players, just deserts, the way the game "ought" to be played? And if it is okay to consider context, is it always okay? And if it's not always okay, when isn't it? What sorts of calls should or shouldn't be affected?

Anyway, I thought I did the right thing: I still think so, though obviously not everyone agreed. The point is that ambiguity, ethical ambiguity, is much more a part of umpiring than anyone ever acknowledges, except, of course, when the umpires themselves, experienced ones, look in the mirror. Longtime baseball watchers will be aware, for example, of "the neighborhood play," something that has always catalyzed a certain amount of outrage on the part of fans but that has mostly, though not entirely, disappeared from the big leagues because of slow-motion instant replay on television.

The neighborhood play occurs on an attempted double play, when the pivotman takes the throw as he gets to second base and throws to first, but in so doing does not actually touch the bag with his foot, or he touches it but not at the same time he has the ball in his possession. He just gets close, either physically or temporally; i.e., he's in the neighborhood. For most of baseball history, umpires tended not to be sticklers about this call, allowing the fielders some leeway, on the logic that the pivotman is at some risk of being hurt because a base runner is often bearing down on him, and while he is catching and throwing, he is unable to get out of the way or protect himself against being upended.

"If you want to break down what you mean by 'neighborhood,' yes, there's a neighborhood play," Tom Hallion would explain to me later that year. "If the throw, the fielder, and everything stays in an ordinary progression of what's supposed to happen, what should happen, what normally happens, I'd say, yeah, you would give him the call even if he's not right on the bag. Let's say the fielder drags his foot and misses the bag, but the throw is there, the fielder doesn't have to reach or make an extraordinary fielding motion, everything is normal. Then it's an out. Because if I call the guy safe, here's what they say: 'Do you want this guy f**king killed?'

"But nowadays you can't give them as much, you can't give them a foot off the bag. Your life's on the line to get it right because they have sixteen freakin' cameras on you. I had a play in Minnesota the other day, guy on first base gets picked off, he goes down to second, slides in, and the second baseman just takes the glove and does a lazy, lazy tag on him, goes down, tags him up here, on the shoulder, like it's just a formality. "

Ordinarily, an umpire would give the defense the benefit of the doubt, Hallion said, a reward for the pitcher who had skillfully separated the runner from first base with a crafty pickoff throw and didn't deserve to have his good move erased by a teammate's lack of effort. Nonetheless, Hallion called the runner safe.

"Well, the guy should have been out, he got picked off," Hallion said. "But I said to the second baseman, 'You're killing me with that tag. You gotta give me something better than that. I can't give you that.'

"This is the kind of call you make from experience," Hallion concluded.

[MikeStrybel]

Seriously, let it go. Expected calls are fading from professional, collegiate and some high school umpiring. Your contention that it isn't is similar to the arguments about 'Get it Right' a decade or so ago. Many people refused to believe that umpires would ever change a call after conferring with each other let alone see such meetings be mandated. Let it go.

I read Weber's book a while ago. It is a fun read and he paints images that are enjoyable to those of us who enjoy umpiring. It's funny that you didn't mention the excerpt about Tim McClelland. Weber recalls the 2007 N.L. wildcard game between Rockies and Padres. McClelland, in the 13th inning called Matt Holliday safe on a super close play at the dish. Replays showed that he never reached the plate. McClelland later said, “I can’t beat myself up. I saw what I saw and I called what I saw.” Nothing expected about it, just like the play involving DiMuro, he called what he saw because that is what we are supposed to do. Call what we see, not what someone expects.

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Seriously, let it go. Expected calls are fading from professional, collegiate and some high school umpiring. Your contention that it isn't is similar to the arguments about 'Get it Right' a decade or so ago. Many people refused to believe that umpires would ever change a call after conferring with each other let alone see such meetings be mandated. Let it go.

I read Weber's book a while ago. It is a fun read and he paints images that are enjoyable to those of us who enjoy umpiring. It's funny that you didn't mention the excerpt about Tim McClelland. Weber recalls the 2007 N.L. wildcard game between Rockies and Padres. McClelland, in the 13th inning called Matt Holliday safe on a super close play at the dish. Replays showed that he never reached the plate. McClelland later said, “I can’t beat myself up. I saw what I saw and I called what I saw.” Nothing expected about it, just like the play involving DiMuro, he called what he saw because that is what we are supposed to do. Call what we see, not what someone expects.

You're telling me I should let it go? This from a guy who has posted as many posts as I have on the topic (including 4 in the past day alone). If you're tired of the topic, don't click on the thread.

Look, I'm just saying that other well known umpires (Tom Hallion) recognize that there is more to umpiring than just "getting it right". As Hallion says, "That's where experience comes in".

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

You're telling me I should let it go? This from a guy who has posted as many posts as I have on the topic (including 4 in the past day alone). If you're tired of the topic, don't click on the thread.

Look, I'm just saying that other well known umpires (Tom Hallion) recognize that there is more to umpiring than just "getting it right". As Hallion says, "That's where experience comes in".

I agree wholeheartily. I had a call the other day when I went against the expected call. R2 a grounder to short BR out at first R2 takes off for third. The throw is high that easily beats the runner and the third baseman puts his glove on top of the bag. I call the runner safe. Here comes the Coach. You blew that call. I tell the Coach your guy has got to give me a better effort than that. No way the runner is out if the glove is on the middle of the base. He turned and walked away.