Help a broadcaster out (re: baseball myths)

[Larry1953]

Common Baseball Myths

This is a good place to start :-)

[Larry1953]

This situation often causes incorrect comments from announcers and I saw it in an Astros game about a month ago: the left fielder made a fairly long run for a fly ball toward the wall at MMP. He caught it near the heel of his glove with an outstretched arm. He took a step or two and in the motion of transferring the ball to his throwing hand dropped it. Ump ruled no-catch. The announcers rambled on about "while transferring" and "he took two steps" to explain why they thought it was a catch. I think the confusion comes with how readily out calls are made at 2B when DP throws are muffed. There is a difference between catching a batted ball and a throw and the degree of "control" required.

[kylejt]

I'll give you my top three:

Foul tip: A foul tip is a ball that goes from the bat, sharply and directly to the catchers mitt (or bare hand, ouch), and is caught. Most announcers think that any ball fouled off at the plate is a foul tip. Not so, only the ones that are actually caught.

Ground rule double: Ground rules are those local rules that only pertain to that certain ball park. Tarps on the field, over head wires, domed stadiums, etc. A ball that just bounces over the fence is not a ground rule double, just a two base award.

Check swings: This is a tough one, because the definition of an attempt to strike at the ball is fuzzy. What it isn't is the bat going past the plate, the batter breaking his wrists or other myth. It's just did the umpire think the batter attempted to strike at it.

[Larry1953]

Milo Hamilton always makes it a big deal to call it a "book rule double" or a rule book double", usually with a lengthy explanation of why it is that and not a ground rule double. I'd much rather he just say GRD and spare the other stuff. We get the idea already. What bugs me is when the announcers don't know the ground rules of their own park.

I don't mind at all if an announcer says, "he swings and tips it back foul". That paints the perfect word picture. If it is really a "foul tip" it is for all intents and purposes a swing and a miss - unless the catcher drops it in which case it's " swing and a miss, strike three .... nope he's still alive, he must have tipped it". Again, a perfect word picture even though it is not technically correct. I have never heard an announcer argue that a foul tip is a dead ball.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Milo Hamilton always makes it a big deal to call it a "book rule double" or a rule book double", usually with a lengthy explanation of why it is that and not a ground rule double. I'd much rather he just say GRD and spare the other stuff. We get the idea already. What bugs me is when the announcers don't know the ground rules of their own park.

I don't mind at all if an announcer says, "he swings and tips it back foul". That paints the perfect word picture. If it is really a "foul tip" it is for all intents and purposes a swing and a miss - unless the catcher drops it in which case it's " swing and a miss, strike three .... nope he's still alive, he must have tipped it". Again, a perfect word picture even though it is not technically correct. I have never heard an announcer argue that a foul tip is a dead ball.

The problem is that misuse of the phrase "foul tip" by the announces creates the impression to the viewers that any tipped ball, foul or foul tip, is a foul ball and dead.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

This situation often causes incorrect comments from announcers and I saw it in an Astros game about a month ago: the left fielder made a fairly long run for a fly ball toward the wall at MMP. He caught it near the heel of his glove with an outstretched arm. He took a step or two and in the motion of transferring the ball to his throwing hand dropped it. Ump ruled no-catch. The announcers rambled on about "while transferring" and "he took two steps" to explain why they thought it was a catch. I think the confusion comes with how readily out calls are made at 2B when DP throws are muffed. There is a difference between catching a batted ball and a throw and the degree of "control" required.

Larry - if he drops it on the transfer it's a valid catch.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Larry - if he drops it on the transfer it's a valid catch.

From Baseball Digest: " Generally speaking, umpires want to see the player reaching into his glove. Veteran umpire Tim McClleland goes one step further. He says, "Voluntary and intentional release is when a player actually reaches into his glove and is in the act of pulling it out." Frequently, when a fielder is trying to rush a throw after making a catch he will drop the ball but is given credit for the catch because he was in the act of making the transfer which demonstrates complete control."

I take this to mean that for some minuscule fraction of a second, the glove, ball and throwing hand are all in contact at the same time. In the Astros game the VT LF was in the act of bringing his hands together - outstretched glove arm down to his throwing hand when the "sno-coned" ball in the heel of his glove fell out.

[Larry1953]

For example, say F1 is covering first to retire B/R on a grounder to F3. F1 clearly catches the toss from F3, touches the bag with his foot and the runner runs up his back. This causes him to take a couple of stumbling steps and fall. Bracing his fall with both hands causes the ball to come out of his glove on impact. Now, maybe the proper call is no catch/no out, but I doubt there would be much argument from OT if it was ruled an out. Compare this to a stumbling outfielder where it would most definitely be ruled no catch.

[Larry1953]

I don't know how to search for MLB videos, but the play I described is on the highlights clips on MLB.tv. It was Rays @ Astros 6/25/2011. Sam Fuld was F7 and Carlos Lee was the batter. Anyone know how to link to a specific date/game?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

From Baseball Digest: " Generally speaking, umpires want to see the player reaching into his glove. Veteran umpire Tim McClleland goes one step further. He says, "Voluntary and intentional release is when a player actually reaches into his glove and is in the act of pulling it out." Frequently, when a fielder is trying to rush a throw after making a catch he will drop the ball but is given credit for the catch because he was in the act of making the transfer which demonstrates complete control."

I take this to mean that for some minuscule fraction of a second, the glove, ball and throwing hand are all in contact at the same time. In the Astros game the VT LF was in the act of bringing his hands together - outstretched glove arm down to his throwing hand when the "sno-coned" ball in the heel of his glove fell out.

A voluntary release does not necessarily entail a reach for the ball or simultaneous contact between glove, ball & bare hand.

Example: R2, less than 2 out. F4 dives and backhands a line drive up the middle. As he is still sliding, he flips the ball to F6 in an attempt to catch R2 off his base. F6 does not catch the ball.

The batter/runner is out because F4's release of the ball was voluntary and intentional. The bottom line on determining a catch is secure possession of the ball coupled with control of the body. A voluntary release is proof of such control.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

From Baseball Digest: " Generally speaking, umpires want to see the player reaching into his glove. Veteran umpire Tim McClleland goes one step further. He says, "Voluntary and intentional release is when a player actually reaches into his glove and is in the act of pulling it out." Frequently, when a fielder is trying to rush a throw after making a catch he will drop the ball but is given credit for the catch because he was in the act of making the transfer which demonstrates complete control."

I take this to mean that for some minuscule fraction of a second, the glove, ball and throwing hand are all in contact at the same time. In the Astros game the VT LF was in the act of bringing his hands together - outstretched glove arm down to his throwing hand when the "sno-coned" ball in the heel of his glove fell out.

So you've never seen a fielder flip the ball to another fielder directy from his glove?

You've never flipped a ball from your glove to your hand?

You're using Baseball Digest as a rules source?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

So you've never seen a fielder flip the ball to another fielder directy from his glove?

You've never flipped a ball from your glove to your hand?

You're using Baseball Digest as a rules source?

There seems to be a subtle difference in the amount of control needed to make a catch when making a base-tag force out and making a catch of a batted ball in flight. The Baseball Digest article also described a play where F7 made a long run to catch a fly just fair. His momentum carried him to the railing. When he braced himself the ball came out of his glove and fell into the stands. B/R was ruled safe and was awarded appropriate bases.

I know it bugs y'all to have sources like BD quoted, but I only used it to cite what a veteran MLB umpire had to say about it. That doesn't seem too terribly out of line.

[Larry1953]

As regards to flip tosses from the glove, sure, you see it all the time. Check out Todd Helton's 40 foot jai alai toss last night ( it went 3 feet over the leaping catcher's glove and cost an additional run. But these are usually on grounders. I don't recall ever seeing an infielder snare a line drive and then do a direct glove flip to a base. If the receiving fielder muffed it and the ball ended up on the ground, an OOO might have cause to rule "no catch" especially if the flip toss was way off the mark.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

The Baseball Digest article also described a play where F7 made a long run to catch a fly just fair. His momentum carried him to the railing. When he braced himself the ball came out of his glove and fell into the stands. B/R was ruled safe and was awarded appropriate bases.

Of course he was. That's the correct ruling.

What's less clear is wtf your point is. (apologies for the poor grammar)

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Common Baseball Myths

This is a good place to start :-)

Same thing with rules references for OBR and FED if you are interested:

Top Baseball/Softball Rules Myths, 2011 Edition