MLB umpire suspended

[Rita C]

Just a question for those of you hung up on the PC world of today.

What would the response have been had Froemming made that comment 40 years ago? 30 years? 20 years?

Rita

[GarthB]

Jim:

I have no idea why you are apologizing to me. Did you do something wrong? Did you make a mistake? Did you fart?

I take no offense at your words. I am not a rabid defender of stupidity. (I do not use the phrase PC because it has lost its meaning. Much like the words "liberal" and "conservative" it is used primarily by those who wish to denote something negative)

I am, however, opposed to causing unwarranted harm, fear or itimidation by action or words merely because of one's race, gender, religion, political bent or social standing.

[greymule]

Rita, I believe that 40 years ago—1963—Bruce Froemming would have been roundly criticized, possibily even more so than today, but for somewhat different reasons. This is partially because, especially so soon after World War II, a public attack on someone's Jewishness would have been considered way over the line.

But it's also for another reason. You are probably too young to remember, but 40 years ago obscenities were very rarely heard in public, and believe it or not, "b*tch" was considered an obscenity. A man lost face if he directed such words toward a woman. He was dishonorable.

Students used to be disciplined, even suspended from school, for using words that today are thrown around like confetti. Believe me, if a kid in my school had been heard saying, "You s*ck," he'd still be writing on the blackboard. Polite society did not permit the use of words that today are commonly uttered on television and screamed toward players on ballfields. Even the word "hell" was not spoken on TV. There were no laws to this effect, but that's what society expected.

I also remember when Hank Bauer of the Yankees, during a pre-game TV interview in the 1950s, said something like, "If our pitching doesn't come through this weekend, we'll probably get our *ss kicked." People talked about it for days, and eventually excused it on the grounds that Bauer was a former U.S. Marine who deserved a break since he had served his country heroically. (Plus, went the wisdom, everybody knew that Marines used "colorful" language.) But Bauer wasn't getting any invitations to speak at teas.

Personally, I wish that in that regard our sensibilities were more in line with those of the "old days."

Bruce Froemming should indeed be criticized for his stupid and callous remarks, especially if they were public. However, the PC movement would see that he lost his job and was sent to a re-education camp, and that's making a mountain out of a molehill. The PC movement also finds fault with people who mean no harm whatsoever but simply use ordinary terms that don't reflect PC politics, like "slave," "old wives' tales," "gypped," "waitress," "manhole cover," and the list goes on forever.

Hank Greenberg said that, when he played, every single batter who came up heard ethnic slurs not only from the crowd but also from the other team. It didn't matter that your own team had Italians on it, the Italian on the other team was a stupid dago. Greenberg said that the slurs directed toward him stood out because he was the only (or at least the most prominent) Jew. He also said that after he returned in 1945 from military service, the ethnic slurs were gone. The horrors of WW2 had shaken people too much. (It would be two years before Jackie Robinson heard them, but they didn't last long.)

So I say treat everybody with respect and don't call anybody names. And when you use obscenities, you're merely showing off your inability to express yourself and your lack of vocabulary. But I also say to "heck" with PC.

[Rita C]

Mr. Greymule,

I do remember 40 years back. Forty years ago tomorrow I celebrated my eighth birthday. Let's see what I remember about that time and since.

I remember the male teachers of 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. They taught us how to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir". Be sure we did. To forget was to receive lashes with a yardstick across our buttocks, hands, or (if you were a boy) at the side of the knee with legs about a yard apart.

I remember one of these teachers making fun of my non-Anglo-Saxon name. Nevermind that we had anglicized the pronunciation to make it easier for Americans to pronounce. (One of the vowel sounds doesn't exist in the English language.)

I remember my brother changing the spelling of his first name under my mother's instructions so that he would no longer be punished for spelling it "wrong".

I remember the scandal when the brother of one of the girls on my eighth grade basketball team showed up at our game with hair to his shoulders.

I remember saying that he worked for my dad. I remember the teacher saying, "Your dad should fire him!" because he had long hair. I remember crying. I remember thinking my dad was a better man for looking at a man for what he did instead of what he looked like.

I remember eighth grade being the last time I played an organized sport. They didn't exist for girls after eighth grade.

There's more I remember. I do think that some things have changed for the better since then. Overall I think most tend to romanticize that time. People tried to make things better by changing words but I think that people continue to find a way to hate. (Witness the fifth grader I heard taunt another one the other day by calling him "mentally challenged")

It was different back then, but it wasn't better.

Rita

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

Bruce Froemming should indeed be criticized for his stupid and callous remarks, especially if they were public.

IMO we need the facts first.

This is according to sports shows articles etc. written by various authors.

1. Bruce Froemming was in the privacy of his own home. He was talking to someone via his cell phone and forgot to turn the cell phone off when he made his comment.

Do I condone what he said - Of cource not but the fact is he said these things in the privacy of his own home NOT in some public Forum.

2. The acting Commissioner of Baseball is Bud Seilig who is Jewish. He handed down a 10 game suspension so if in the eyes of the Commissioner who is Jewish, he must have felt that the comments even though derogatory were made in the privacy of someone's home and not as a Statement in a Public Forum.

If we are going to judge people on what they say etc. then IMO look at some of the Individuals in the Hall of Fame in all Major Sports.

Also, let's get down to the REAL issue. These types of things are printed not because someone really cares about ethnic slurs but for MONEY. Just look at this thread which already generated over 4 pages of comments, add that to the millions of newspapers sold plus the people who listen to sports talk shows.

If you or I said something similar no one would give a hoot except the people that know us.

The bottom line whether you agree or disagree is that in this Country we have FREEDOM of Speech whether you like that Speech or not. There was a Time when as individuals we couldn't say "BOO" without fear of being be-headed. Would like to go back to those times?

Does Bruce Froemming purposely "Cheat" when calling balls / strikes when a Jewish player is up at bat? or squeeze a pitcher who is Jewish? If he does those types of things then IMO he should be FIRED right on the SPOT.

I think we need to distingusih comments made in someone's home vs. a Public Statement to a group of people.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

Very good point. Actually, I went only by what was posted here and missed the venue of Froemming's comments. That's why I said, "If [Froemming's comments] were made publicly." I should have added, "Only if his comments were made publicly."

If the PC crowd could prosecute people for what they say privately, they could hang everybody (probably including themselves).

[jicecone]

Actually, I was begining to belive this was a "Chat Room"