MLB umpire suspended

[GarthB]

Garth, do you actually think it's good that someone is brought up on charges for voicing his opinion?

Depends on what he "voices."

Hate speech and speech intended to threaten or that which carries an implied threat are not mere opinions. Gone are the days when good ol' boys can "voice their opinions" to harass or scare the hell out of those with whom they differ.

Yes, good.

[Tim C]

Garth is far from being an activist for the PC movement.

His points are well taken, IF you would have an open mind.

The point being made is that "barndoors" cannot be closed. To remember the past and learn from it is imporant, to try to take us back there, counter productive.

We are no longer a nation of 150 million, primarily white humans. As our population has increased so has the need to meld those cultures together.

Your argument has holes. The lack of citations is funny because you select "specific" one time examples and attempt to make them "the way it is."

Pish-Posh (correct reference for my geographic area).

If we use your system of arguing then we could then say, "Hmmm, in Wyoming a gay man was murdered by being beaten to death: therefore, all people in Wyoming are anit-gay." Same logic as your "one time examples".

None of us doubt the examples you gave (I remember the American Flag example -- again ONE COMPANY making a poor decision)but they are too personal (I had a friend that this happened to is not acceptable evidence in ANY arguement)or just one time judgements.

I strongly agree that you have ever right to have what ever feelings you have about anything. I also support your right to openly discuss them in any forum.

I also strongly suggest that you have a logical and documented appeal if you want anyone to fall into your camp.

I will always fight for your right for an opinion even if I feel you are wrong.

[gsf23]

Originally posted by Tim C

Your argument has holes. The lack of citations is funny because you select "specific" one time examples and attempt to make them "the way it is."

But according to the PC movement, you only get one chance. You say one thing, and that is the way it is. Now, Froemming said what he said. Does that mean that he dislikes all Jews? Maybe. Or, maybe it just means that he dislikes this one in particular. Or maybe, as you say in your example of the company and the flag, he just made a bad decision. I get called names all the time. Stupid German....dumb kraut...and many other things. Does that mean that the person who said that dislikes Germans? No..it just means that they dislike me.

If you want to use the logic that one example doesn't make it so, that's fine. But then before you call someone a racist, or a hater, or whatever, give more than just one example.

[Tim C]

Since you have quoted my post I would like a citation from it where I say anything that could be construed to your statement,

"But then before you call someone a racist, or a hater, or whatever, give more than just one example."

Please direct me to where I said anything like this so I can edit it out immediately.

Thank you.

Tee

[gsf23]

In your reply to greymule, you told him that taking one example doesn't make something so. That's all I am saying to. Taking one comment that someone makes doesn't make it so. I'm not talking about you in particular, but all these people that are saying Froemming is an anti-semite, fine, then give me another example of what he said. Don't just point out one thing that was said and make it the way it is. Just like you had said, "One example doesn't make it so."

[Tim C]

Thank you for the clarification.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

"You can't close barn doors."

You're right!

"insulting to most everyone with an IQ beyond their waist size." You're right! and to continue your sarcastic approach either increase your IQ or slim down.

"be turned down for jobs because of your religion, race, or national background." You're right! I have been. Being a 40ish year-old, white, Christian male, I have been bested and passed, by people of less qualification, because they were females, or minorities or of the more approved religion.

I disagree with letting this crap bother me or assuming that it is out of my control. I can do something about it... and so can you. If you want.

Because no matter which route you choose... YOU'RE RIGHT.

You will find justification to prove your point... and be able to stand up proudly with chest puffed out and say I'M RIGHT!

It's human nature to feel you are in the right. We all do it. Look around yourself. There are all kinds of people around you saying they are right. Many of them are on opposite ends of the battle. They can't possibly both be right but in each of their own respective minds they are... as are you.

Our world is filled with injustices. The perpetrators of these injustices think they are right. For their time, their situation, their upbringing, their understanding, their perception, their experiences... they are right and they are justified in feeling this way. Ask them if you don't believe me.

The fundamental difference is the choice they made before they implemented their human nature to say they were right.

"Can't go back to the good ol' days." You're right! Learn from the past and move ahead. Be politically correct; that is how you respect other people. God told us to love our neighbors (other people); love them. Be politically correct. Love those who are not PC. SET THE EXAMPLE.

Please don't perpetuate the problems or exacerbate them by having banal, MEANINGLESS, discussions... that serve no purpose except to escalate the very injustices you are complaining about. If you make the fundamental choice to let this stuff wash over you and be gone... YOU WILL ALSO BE RIGHT.

Choose sides wisely because which ever one you choose, you will throw yourself behinds its cause, and you will be right. Please recognise that being right is not that terribly important and your promulgation of being right does not mean that you are... to everyone else.

I am saddened by the injustices we all face. Peace be with you, Tony

[greymule]

I know that anecdotal evidence alone does not prove anything. We can all cite anomalies. After all, Hitler loved dogs and, after his mother died, wrote extensive praises of the Jewish doctor who had cared for her. However, to put forth an argument on a web site, one is practically limited to citing examples. Therefore, I recommend any of the many books that have documented how open discourse is under attack in this country. In my opinion the incidents I mentioned are not one-time oddities but are instead representative of a PC silliness that has now become the rule, not the exception.

As for "hate speech," saying, "I'm going to kill you," has long been illegal in the U.S. And "You dirty [you fill it in]" has long been considered "fighting words." But today, practically anything that makes someone uncomfortable can qualify as "hate speech."

Now tell me your honest opinion of this:

Q: How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. You go. Have a good time. I'll just sit here at home, alone, in the dark.

Is anybody out there truly offended by that? Should someone who tells that joke be sent to re-education camp? If so, send a one-way ticket to the person I heard it from, my Jewish business partner.

[Buckeye12]

A friend of mine who goes to a small college in Ohio was forced, by the university, to remove an American flag from his dorm room window due to complaints they were recieving from the meninite students enrolled there. These students claimed that displaying the American flag was an act of supporting the war with Iraq; an event they are strictly against. A majority of this PC stuff is deffinately rediculous.

[Tim C]

See it is your friends problem that he didn't refuse and say, "let's take this to the press and see who wins."

See some of us in this thread are being mistaken for supporters of the PC movement. That is wrong.

In fact you can see that I have told GreyMule that I will fight for his right to speak his mind. And I always will.

As a card carrying member of the SDS during the 60's no one has ever mistaken me for supporting the "status quo" . . .

I just fall back to the point that it is important that we recognize that times change and NOT the desire to to have a free voice.

Your friend should tell the university to piss up a rope.

I would have 35 years ago and I would today.

[bluezebra]

". After all, Hitler loved dogs and, after his mother died, wrote extensive praises of the Jewish doctor who had cared for her"

This is exactly the opposite of what I read, and saw on TV documentaries, about the reason for Hitler's vehement hatred of Jews. He blamed the doctor for his mother's death, and developed that into a hatred for all Jews.

Bob

[greymule]

Yes, that Ohio student should have gone to the press, and he should have told the college just where they could shove their edict that he had to take his American flag down.

But it takes a lot of courage for a young college student to stand up to people who are telling him what a horrible villain he is for hurting people's feelings by flying the flag. If you don't go along with the program, you risk harassment, ostracism, bullying, vandalism to your car, and who knows what else.

Of course, college campuses are notoriously PC places now, where free speech covers the entire spectrum from left to far left.

By the way, how could anyone know for certain that flying the flag meant support for war? Maybe he was simply saying, "I love my country." Maybe he just liked the colors. Amazing how these people know exactly what's in someone's mind.

Interesting, isn't it, that if that same student had publicly burned the American flag (and offended vastly more people), the same crowd that was hassling him for flying it would be screaming about his sacred right to free "symbolic" speech.

[Tim C]

Excellent post, sir.

[greymule]

Tim— Thank you.

Bob— Many people have speculated about the source of Hitler's hatred for Jews. Was it that he was himself part Jewish and full of self-hate? Was it the Jewish doctor who couldn't save his mother? Was it shock at his first exposure to Hasidim, who looked strange to him and spoke differently? Was it that certain Jews supported Bolshevism? Probably nobody will ever know for sure. Certainly by the end of his life he had convinced himself that "International Jewry" was behind everything bad that had ever happened, probably including the sinking of the Titanic. So his delusions fed on themselves.

My own guess is that it was pure political expediency. The collapse of the German economy hurt some people more than others, so it was easy to gain favor with people who were doing badly by telling them that it was all the fault of the people who were not doing as badly.

It is interesting that in the early years, when Hitler was testing the political waters, he had almost nothing to say about Jews.

While reading a biography of Hitler, I was struck by the long, flowery, thankful, practically adoring letter he wrote to the doctor who treated his mother. Perhaps later, in his paranoia, Hitler decided that the doctor must have killed her, but I know of no hard evidence for that.

I read a lot about WW2, Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill, etc. Unfortunately, my books are in storage after a move, but when I dig them out I'll try to find some pertinent material to send you.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by greymule
Tim— Thank you.

Bob— Many people have speculated about the source of Hitler's hatred for Jews. Was it that he was himself part Jewish and full of self-hate? Was it the Jewish doctor who couldn't save his mother? Was it shock at his first exposure to Hasidim, who looked strange to him and spoke differently? Was it that certain Jews supported Bolshevism? Probably nobody will ever know for sure. Certainly by the end of his life he had convinced himself that "International Jewry" was behind everything bad that had ever happened, probably including the sinking of the Titanic. So his delusions fed on themselves.

My own guess is that it was pure political expediency. The collapse of the German economy hurt some people more than others, so it was easy to gain favor with people who were doing badly by telling them that it was all the fault of the people who were not doing as badly.

It is interesting that in the early years, when Hitler was testing the political waters, he had almost nothing to say about Jews.

While reading a biography of Hitler, I was struck by the long, flowery, thankful, practically adoring letter he wrote to the doctor who treated his mother. Perhaps later, in his paranoia, Hitler decided that the doctor must have killed her, but I know of no hard evidence for that.

I read a lot about WW2, Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill, etc. Unfortunately, my books are in storage after a move, but when I dig them out I'll try to find some pertinent material to send you.

I'd greatly appreciate it. Most of what I've read re: WWII was the combat aspect, especially the Marines in the Pacific.

Bob