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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 08:03pm
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Heres what happenned in my game today, 12yo,travel ball. High level talent.
R1 and R2, one out. Soft liner hit towards F6. The kind hit off the end of the bat that really doesnt pick up much speed or height. R2, breaks for 3rd. F6, who was playing "normal" spot,deep, not in runners path, takes ONE step in to field ball, now, puting him in the line. Yeah, you know whats coming. Just as ball bounces in front of F6, R2 makes contact with F6. Minor contact. This contact, IMO, didnt let F6 have a clean shot at ball. R2 then stopped, went around F6 to 3rd. F6 had no play on anyone. I was PU. My BU, didnt pivot around quick enough (thats what he told me later) and didnt get a clear shot of play. Ergo, didnt call anything. Defensive coach has cow, and screams for interference. Asks BU to appeal to me. BU calls me over. I tell him what I saw, I saw interference. My BU then calls out R2 for interference. Offensive coach now is ready to give birth, hes so excited. Saying that my partner ONLY appealed to me AFTER Defensive coach told him to ask for help. And that we were "letting the other manager umpire game for us". Told him, no, thats not the case. My BU, didnt have the call, and went to me, which I had. It was pretty clear cut. Offensive coach saying its not my call. Tried to explain to him its similar (I think) to a check swing. Its my call (PU). I have the closest view. And it stays my call til the catcher asks me to check with my BU, or I do so on my own. Then, as in the play that happenned, Im going to my partner to see what he has, as in the interference play. Then my BU can say he did, or didnt go. And that would be the call that stands, same as other example.
After the game in solicting opinions from my fellow blues, one told my BU, that to "stick to the call". "You didnt have anything, so stay with that". Supposedly we would be avoiding any brouhahas. Well, calling it or not calling it, either way, the play had enough trouble written on it that someone wasnt going to be happy with the call.
So, IMO, I want to get the play right. Now I KNOW were not always going to handle all plays like this in this way, but I felt, since my BU made NO call, I wasnt CHANGING a call.
1)Should my BU not have appealed to me, and stuck with his call?
2) If he does go to me, do I "back him up" and say we have nothing? That would not sit with me as , this was clear cut. Marginal, maybe.
3) Should I have called interference right away when I saw it? Even though the BU has the call? We probably would have had an argument either way, but if I call it, might not be as heated and I can say its not just the BU who has the call, that either of us can make it?
Im going with #3. Opinions please.....
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Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 08:24pm
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First, R2 contacted F6 while F6 was fielding the ball. Interference. Either ump can—and should—call that as soon as he sees it.

Second, the coaches do not tell the umps whose call is whose and who can appeal to whom. Yes, there are proper umpire mechanics, but they are guidelines to help you get the calls right, not to prevent you from correcting a mistake.

Obviously, once it appears to one coach as if you're letting the other coach tell you what procedure you must use to decide the plays, you're in trouble.

And what's the complaint of this coach who says you reversed the BU only after he asked for help? That's the usual procedure.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:02pm
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Greymule, in reference to your statement about the coach "telling us does this and that", pretty quickly he was ejected. MY BU tossed him after we told him to zip after he made the first remark about letting other coaches call the plays for us. Few minutes later he chirped again, and boom, bye bye. We wernt letting the other coach intimidate us and do "calls" for us. We all know coaches will try and influence, and espeically lower levels, with more inexperinced umpires, it works. Ive seen this especially on plays where R2 is stealing 3rd. Close play. Base coach signals a BIG safe. And sure enough, inexperienced blue, calls it safe. After watching this many times, you can read the blue and tell thats what happenned. But, no, not in this case specifically, or overall in general, do I let that happen. I put a stop to it quick, with either the coach whos trying to do mind games, or the other coach thinking thats whats happenning.
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Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:45pm
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Talking "That's why you're paying two of us!"

"Ah, yes, the old "I didn't see it" situation.

As often as we hear about this type of "partnering", it's a wonder more murders don't occur during games.

Did you ask your partner just what he was watching when the interference occurred? Since he didn't see diddley squat on the play he'd better go to you for help! If you saw it, and made the correct call, the offensive coach should have no complaint.

If anyone(especially the "fellow blues") claim you were wrong in making the call right, they should be required to work alone in their games where they won't ever have to go to anyone for help!

You were correct in your efforts, common sense, fair play, etc., rather than an ego trip blown call.

Senior
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Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:51pm
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Originally posted by chuckfan1

Heres what happenned in my game today, 12yo,travel ball. High level talent.

Do these select Travel Teams play on 60ft. / 75ft. or 90 ft. bases?

The reason I ask is that it effects how I answer your question.

1. 60 ft. diamond. - On a 60ft. diamond the BU with men on base is positioned in the outfield and therefore, is BEHIND the action, so IMO the PU has the best view of interference since the PU is right in front of the action.
As with most things this should be covered in Pre-game.

2. 75 ft. or 90 ft. bases where the BU is INSIDE the diamond. In this instance it's the BU's call right or wrong, because the BU is "right there" and to overturn his /her call or make the call FOR THEM can make for a LONG game the rest of the way.

Asks BU to appeal to me. BU calls me over. I tell him what I saw, I saw interference. My BU then calls out R2 for interference.

I do not agree with the above approach as your partner the BU is now hung out to dry If YOU are the ONE making the call then MAKE IT . The BU should simply point to you or defer to you and YOU make the call.

IMO, that's one of the reasons why the coaches went ballisric and the BU had to toss. The BU originally did not see the intereference but now after talking to you is making the call.

Whenever an umpire makes a call that does not "belong to them" then MAKE the call. Do not put your partner "out to dry".

As mentioned, these are things that need to be gone over in PRE-GAME and also will be discussed at clinics.

Pete Booth
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 11:35pm
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Pete: --75 ft, BU, inside.
--Even though BU "right there", he didnt get in position in time, to SEE the play. Its not like he saw it, had nothing, then through the appeal, I changed it. I didnt "change" anything. I made a call on what I saw. Just like in the check swing example I gave. IF a BU overturns a ball call I make on a check swing, to a "yes, he went", isnt he "overturning my call"? Yes, because he was appealed to. Im not hung out to dry on that one. So there is not right or wrong as you say, as he didnt see the play in time. If hes guilty of something, its he didnt hustle quick enough, or whatever happenned. After defensive coach talked to my BU, my BU came to me, calmly said he didnt see the play, and asked my what I had. I told him I had interference. Clear cut. Slam dunk. Hes not hung out to dry. Like I said on this too, if I "back my partner" and call nothing, then were STILL going to have a coach with a fit. It was that clear cut. Its not like it was a marginal play. Say for example, a BR rounding third and missing the base by a nano-inch. No, he missed it by a foot. So I didnt
"overturn" it. If he had called interference , and I said change it, or if he had called no interference and I changed it. THATS overturning. But since he missed the play, we want to get it right. Some umpires need to swallow their ego.
--Yes, I should have made the call, but as he was going back to his position, he made it, he had no problem with it. We never had a problem with the situation you describe of hanging out to dry.
--Thats not the reason the coach went "ballistic". He was very upset thinking the defensive coach was influencing us by having my BU see what I had. Which wasnt the case. He wasnt tossed until a couiple innings later when he made consective comments about that. First time he was warned, 2nd ime, my BU tossed him. The offensive coach never really argued the interference call, which tells me, that what HE saw also. The only refrence he made to the play was he turned to the dugout and asked his runner if he touched the fielder. That was about it from the offensive coach on the actual play. That tells me he saw what I saw.
--My BU wanted to make the call. Coaches had NO PROBLEM with that. I think youve had a bad experience or two, that makes you think its applied here. Not the case. No one was hung.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 11:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth

75 ft. or 90 ft. bases where the BU is INSIDE the diamond. In this instance it's the BU's call right or wrong, because the BU is "right there" and to overturn his /her call or make the call FOR THEM can make for a LONG game the rest of the way.
This is BS........
Pete, since you seem to think umpire proximity is most important, do you think the BU in B position should be making fair/foul calls on batted balls down the 1B line? Afterall, the BU is closest to the ball going near the base....
Of course not. The PU has the best angle to see what happened.
Interference behind the BU's back is the same situation. The call should be made by the PU.
The situation cited is the exact example of WHY the PU should jump on this call..........

The BU is watching the ball as it comes out from the plate. He's unable to see the action that is occurring behind him with R2 and F6. If he's lucky, he might see the interference as he turns with the ball, but frequently he only sees the remnants of what occurred---leaving him in a state of guessing what might have happened.

There's no need for a BU to guessing about what occurred behind his back when the PU is looking out from the plate seeing all that occurred on ANY and EVERY play like this. As Chuckfan1 knew in his play---this was interference. He knew it because he saw it all happen. What he wasn't sure about was who should have made the call, so he kept quiet. The BU saw the remnants, so the BU also kept quiet. The play was not killed as it should have been. It turned into a problem in getting the obvious call correct.

The PU should have jumped on this call, killing the play when he saw the interference. He's staring into the entire play---seeing it all happen. The call is best left up to him because he has the best angle to see all the action. NOW, the offensive coach is still going to argue. They will argue any interference---get accustomed to it. That doesn't mean that the call is wrong. It means he doesn't like it. Amazing, however, he doesn't complain about it when he's the defensive coach and the call is made on his opponents. He will complain then, however, if that call is not made---exactly as occurred in the situation cited.


Freix

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Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 11:53pm
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Hmmmm,

"12yo,travel ball. High level talent."

Oxymoron . . . Impossible situation.

So far "Senior" has the best post.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 02:24pm
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re: "I was PU. My BU, didnt pivot around quick enough (thats what he told me later) and didnt get a clear shot of play"

Only your partner knows for sure why he did not get turned on that situation; but, on occasion a base ump can get hogtied with one coming at them.

In an case, you state that you saw the interference, so call it immediately and avoid the fiasco.

We should expect our partner to do their job at all times, even we one of us gets caught flatfooted.....
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 02:31pm
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**** "2. 75 ft. or 90 ft. bases where the BU is INSIDE the diamond. In this instance it's the BU's call right or wrong, because the BU is "right there" and to overturn his /her call or make the call FOR THEM can make for a LONG game the rest of the way.

Asks BU to appeal to me. BU calls me over. I tell him what I saw, I saw interference. My BU then calls out R2 for interference.

I do not agree with the above approach as your partner the BU is now hung out to dry If YOU are the ONE making the call then MAKE IT . The BU should simply point to you or defer to you and YOU make the call." *****

Pete, gotta disagree with you on this one. First you tell the guy not to make the call and then "MAKE IT". Somebody please step up to the plate and make the dang call. When its not made because someone feels like their stepping on someone else toes, BOTH look bad.
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Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 02:48pm
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Originally posted by Bfair

Originally posted by PeteBooth

The PU should have jumped on this call, killing the play when he saw the interference. He's staring into the entire play---seeing it all happen.

Steve, I agree with the aforementioned statement and what I tried to get across in my answer was if the PU was going to make the call then MAKE it.

In the above thread, the 2 got together and then the BU made the call not the PU. That was my main point with the thread. If you are going to call it then call it.

Also, since the BU did not see the interference he should not even make a call but simply point to his partner or defer to his partner. If you didn't see interference or any other infraction for that matter and your partner did, then let your partner make the call and explain to the coach.

Pete Booth
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Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 06:23pm
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I agree with Mr. Booth. PU should have made initial call. In this instant, after BU asked PU, PU should have made the late call since he saw it. This is not a situation where either umpire may correct his call based on additional information that partner provides.

Although handled imprecisely, the correct result ensued, so coaches should have restrained themselves. I know of no authority that forbids either umpire in 2-man system to call any interference that he sees.
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Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 08:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth in his first post
75 ft. or 90 ft. bases where the BU is INSIDE the diamond. In this instance it's the BU's call right or wrong, because the BU is "right there" [my emphasis] and to overturn his /her call or make the call FOR THEM can make for a LONG game the rest of the way.
Pete, this certainly appears to me that you are saying that this call belongs to the BU. It does not. This call should always belong to PU---not the BU---unless there's another call on the batted ball that requires PU's attention. In that case, there's not much reason for BU to be watching the ball without knowing what's going on with R2. That's not to say that the BU cannot call interference if he sees action that he judges as interference. But BU shouldn't be guessing about action that occurred behind him that he did not see. He should have the confidence that PU will handle anything that occurs while his back is turned. If the PU sees action he judges as interference, then he should call it. The PU should not assume that the BU saw the action behind his back and judged it as no interference.

Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Bfair
The PU should have jumped on this call, killing the play when he saw the interference. He's staring into the entire play---seeing it all happen.

Steve, I agree with the aforementioned statement and what I tried to get across in my answer was if the PU was going to make the call then MAKE it.

In the above thread, the 2 got together and then the BU made the call not the PU. That was my main point with the thread. If you are going to call it then call it.

Also, since the BU did not see the interference he should not even make a call but simply point to his partner or defer to his partner. If you didn't see interference or any other infraction for that matter and your partner did, then let your partner make the call and explain to the coach.

Pete Booth [/B]
Pete, this disagrees with your first statement that the call belongs to BU. That is why I took exception to your first statement.


I'm confused by your comments, Pete...............
But I'm certain PU should always jump on this call.........


Freix
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Old Mon Jan 20, 2003, 09:05am
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Originally posted by Bfair

Originally posted by PeteBooth in his first post[/i]
75 ft. or 90 ft. bases where the BU is INSIDE the diamond. In this instance it's the BU's call right or wrong, because the BU is "right there" [my emphasis] and to overturn his /her call or make the call FOR THEM can make for a LONG game the rest of the way.


Pete, this certainly appears to me that you are saying that this call belongs to the BU.

Steve, let me clarify speaking for the BU INSIDE the diamond.

First and foremost, interference on a batted ball when BU is "right there" is THEIR call. This is no dfferent then a steal attempt by R1 when BU is in "B" or "C". Is the PU going to make that call?

If it's a DP situation, meaning R1 No outs, then it's the PU's call for interference on the part of R1 since the BU is going to pivot after making the out call at second and getting ready for the banger at first, but in the situation described, R1/R2 the BU should have been in "C", therefore, all he had to do was turn watch the ball and would have been right there for the call.

If initially, the BU says nothing, and the PU KNOWS for certain that there was interference, then the PU can step in and call it Emphatically, which if this is what happened, the coaches would not have been upset as they were.

IMO, the coach was upset because:

1. First there was no Call by ANYONE. AND

2. The Umpires conferred and THE BU who did not even make a call all of a sudden makes an interference call.

If I'm working with a familiar partner, and HE / SHE didn't call interference on this play, I would NOT have called it because I would trust THEIR judgement. I would ask them about the play during the POST game.

Even if you are working with a "rookie", one has to learn. If we start making calls that belong to our partners, it can make for a long game. Also, the coaches will want EVERY call made by this other person questioned.

Pete Booth

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Old Mon Jan 20, 2003, 09:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth
If I'm working with a familiar partner, and HE / SHE didn't call interference on this play, I would NOT have called it because I would trust THEIR judgement. I would ask them about the play during the POST game.
[/B]
________________________________

There is a difference in your partner judging that there was no interference and your partner NOT SEEING the play. In the original post, the base umpire didn't see the play, he said that he didn't turn around fast enough to see what happened. In that situation, yes he should get some help. Now if he saw the whole play and then judged that there was no interference then yes, you trust his/her judgement and move on.
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