Deja vu

[cb33]

In my first post on this board a few weeks ago I asked the question of whether or not to over rule the HP umpire on a hit batsmen. The play in question was a ball in the dirt that struck the batters foot. He ruled the pitch a ball and did not award the batter first base.

This past weekend I was working 10u USSSA with the same umpire again. Roles reversed this time. I was the PU and he was the BU. R1 on first base, BU in B position. Pitcher delivers pitch in the dirt, B2 jumps up and is hit on the foot. I give dead ball signal, HBP, and award batter 1B.

Defensive coach comes out and argues it's a dead ball. I ask him why he thinks it's a dead ball, and he says because it hit the ground first. I explained to him that does not make the ball dead. By this time the BU had come in to listen to the conversation and the coach asked him his opinion on the play. He looked at both of us and said it's a dead ball, RI should return to first and B2 should be back at the plate with a count of 2-1.

I immediately said that my call was going to stand, if coach wanted to protest it would cost him $100, and we would get the tournament director to rule. He protested the call and we got the tournament director to handle the situation in question after explaining what initial call was.

The director upheld my call and the defensive coach was highly upset at BU for costing him $100. Needless to say after the game I spoke with the BU and the Tournament Director and told him I would never call games with this BU again. It's funny sometimes how things work out, with these so-called experienced umpires that work FED & D-3 games.

[DG]

So what is the point. Defensive coach is correct for wrong reason, ball is dead because it struck batter. BU needs to stay out on bases unless asked by PU to join in. If I was TD I would not charge him for protest because BU provided frivolous info when he should have been out by 2b during discussion. And if I were PU I would never tell him what it would cost to protest, none of by business and he should know tourn rules. I don't coach players or coaches.

[jicecone]

Did you read what you wrote because it doesn't sound like anyone knew what they were talking about.

"I give dead ball signal, HBP, and award batter 1B"

You call a dead ball, the coach says it was a dead ball and your partner says it was a dead ball. All of you are Right. ITS A DEAD BALL. I agree , not because it hit the ground but, it was a dead ball.

Just being a dumb, " so-called experienced umpires that work FED & D-3 games", I would try some tact next time and explain why it was dead ball, instead of sounding overly arrogant. But what do I know.

[cb33]

Originally Posted by DG

So what is the point. Defensive coach is correct for wrong reason, ball is dead because it struck batter. BU needs to stay out on bases unless asked by PU to join in. If I was TD I would not charge him for protest because BU provided frivolous info when he should have been out by 2b during discussion. And if I were PU I would never tell him what it would cost to protest, none of by business and he should know tourn rules. I don't coach players or coaches.

The point is BU should have not got involved because he was not asked to join. Our TD requires us to tell team manager of protest fee in hopes of resolving all issues on the field. I don't coach players or coaches either!

[cb33]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Did you read what you wrote because it doesn't sound like anyone knew what they were talking about.

"I give dead ball signal, HBP, and award batter 1B"

You call a dead ball, the coach says it was a dead ball and your partner says it was a dead ball. All of you are Right. ITS A DEAD BALL. I agree , not because it hit the ground but, it was a dead ball.

Just being a dumb, " so-called experienced umpires that work FED & D-3 games", I would try some tact next time and explain why it was dead ball, instead of sounding overly arrogant. But what do I know.

I did explain to the HC why it was a dead ball. He thought that any ball that hits the ground from the pitcher is dead. I guess the BU thought the same. I wasn't overly arrogant in anything I did on the field. No one raised their voices during the discussion, I guess you HTBT.

It seems to me that alot of the replies to posts on this site are arrogant, but what do I know.

[UmpJM]

cb33,

I was a little surprised at DG's "tone", because I didn't read anything "arrogant" in your initial post. And DG is a "good guy". A couple of details were a little unclear in your initial description.

FWIW, if I'm working a game where there's a "protest fee", I would let the coach know about it if it got to that point.

I concur with both you and DG that the BU should STFOOI unless/until his input is requested by his partner.

This is a somewhat "common" sitch that has the potential to turn the game into a "goat rodeo", but never should.

JM

[robbie]

Originally Posted by cb33

I did explain to the HC why it was a dead ball. He thought that any ball that hits the ground from the pitcher is dead.

I've heard this "arguement" before too, but if they took a nono second to think about it, they would be pretty embarassed. Simply point out that if the ground made a pitch a dead ball, we would have no advances on wild pitch or passed ball............

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by robbie

I've heard this "arguement" before too, but if they took a nono second to think about it, they would be pretty embarassed. Simply point out that if the ground made a pitch a dead ball, we would have no advances on wild pitch or passed ball............

I don't think this is an actual "belief," but rather just grasping at straws in order to justify a call in his favor. So reasoning is kinda pointless.

I don't see this level much, but when I encounter something goofy like this I won't try reasoning by analogy, I'll just say, "that's not the rule, coach. Let's play ball."

[robbie]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think this is an actual "belief," but rather just grasping at straws in order to justify a call in his favor. So reasoning is kinda pointless.

I don't see this level much, but when I encounter something goofy like this I won't try reasoning by analogy, I'll just say, "that's not the rule, coach. Let's play ball."

Oh, of course. In game, I'm not having this level of discussion with a coach. My comment is general to quell the absurd claim - which as you point out, is not likely believed anyway.

[jophyal]

cb33,

I know you said in your post last week that you went overthis with that partner... Did you have time for a pregame and discuss it again. I know we downplay pregame with each other in lower level games but they important. I spoke to a middle school coach, at our state football meeting, and he said he can always tell when he is in trouble. When partners come on the field with 5 minutes before first pitch/tip/kickoff and are shaking hands and introducing themselves to one another. I am not saying you didn't, just reminding people how valuable they can be.

Good job in getting it right despite your partner.

[cb33]

Originally Posted by jophyal

cb33,

I know you said in your post last week that you went overthis with that partner... Did you have time for a pregame and discuss it again. I know we downplay pregame with each other in lower level games but they important. I spoke to a middle school coach, at our state football meeting, and he said he can always tell when he is in trouble. When partners come on the field with 5 minutes before first pitch/tip/kickoff and are shaking hands and introducing themselves to one another. I am not saying you didn't, just reminding people how valuable they can be.

Good job in getting it right despite your partner.

No pre-game. Just as you stated in your post, partner arrives 5 minutes before game time. It seems to me that when you call games in these younger age groups, the pre-game doesn't have a priority.

[MD Longhorn]

I would say that in my experience the reason for little or no pregame for games at that level is that they start early and it's a little more normal for umpires to be arriving directly from their day-job. At Varsity there tends to be a later start thus enough time for a normal pregame. At least around here.

[jophyal]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I would say that in my experience the reason for little or no pregame for games at that level is that they start early and it's a little more normal for umpires to be arriving directly from their day-job. At Varsity there tends to be a later start thus enough time for a normal pregame. At least around here.

+1

I totally agree. I will admit that I am lucky and work with the same people often.. I am able to know which ones will be on time and the ones I have to worry about. I have several veteran officials I know will show up 15 mimnutes before game and be prepared. I teach so I totally understand the time crunch. We are able to email and text alot of our partners and I do stress a post game. That way if we call again we at least went over any pickles or problems from the season or game with each other. I also enjoy the male conversation as I am also the only male in my home. I do have a male dog but he squats when he pees too.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Did you read what you wrote because it doesn't sound like anyone knew what they were talking about.

"I give dead ball signal, HBP, and award batter 1B"

You call a dead ball, the coach says it was a dead ball and your partner says it was a dead ball. All of you are Right. ITS A DEAD BALL. I agree , not because it hit the ground but, it was a dead ball.

I think you misunderstood the OP. It seems to me that the coach was arguing that the ball should have been dead the moment it contacted the ground, so it was no longer a pitch and the batter should not be awarded 1B (i.e. not HBP).

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I would say that in my experience the reason for little or no pregame for games at that level is that they start early and it's a little more normal for umpires to be arriving directly from their day-job. At Varsity there tends to be a later start thus enough time for a normal pregame. At least around here.

Mike, it's completely opposite here. The Varsity games primarily start at 4pm, while the sub-Varsity start at 4:15.